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  • #20747
    Avatar photocormack15
    Keymaster
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    From the BHA –

    World Thoroughbred Rankings 2011
    (The official listing of the world’s best racehorses)

    The global horseracing year 2011 will be remembered as an exceptional year marked by two truly outstanding performers in the British trained three year old miler colt FRANKEL (GB) [136] and the older Australian sprinting mare BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) [132]. Both horses remain undefeated and both remain in training for 2012 when hopefully they will be fully tested and their still latent potential to improve further may yet be exposed.

    World Thoroughbred Rankings

    Top 10 horses in 2011

    Rank Horse Rating Trained

    1 FRANKEL (GB) 136 GB

    2 BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 132 AUS

    3 CIRRUS DES AIGLES (FR) 128 FR

    3 DANEDREAM (GER) 128 GER

    5 CANFORD CLIFFS (IRE) 127 GB

    5 REWILDING (GB) 127 GB

    7 DREAM AHEAD (USA) 126 GB

    7 EXCELEBRATION (IRE) 126 GB

    7 NATHANIEL (IRE) 126 GB

    7 SO YOU THINK (NZ) 126 IRE

    FRANKEL (GB) [136] was the joint champion European juvenile colt in 2010 and remained undefeated during 2011 winning 5 races, 4 of which were Group 1 races with his best rating of 136 being achieved when he defeated champion older miler CANFORD CLIFFS (IRE) [127] by no less than 5 lengths in the Qipco Sussex Stakes (G1) at Glorious Goodwood. But surely his most visually arresting performance was when he sensationally spread-eagled the field from the start in the Qipco 2000 Guineas (G1) at Newmarket. His rating of 136 marks him out as the joint top rated colt, along with crack Irish colt SEA THE STARS (IRE) (2009), since the World Thoroughbred Rankings (WTR) were instituted in 2004 and one would have to go back to 1984 and another Irish colt EL GRAN SENOR (USA) (with a rating of 138 in the former “International Classifications”) to find a miler of comparable quality on official ratings.

    BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) [132] was world champion older sprinter in 2010 with a rating of 123 and she remained undefeated during 2011 when her rating increased to 132 as a result of her astonishingly dominant weight carrying performance in the Lexus Newmarket Handicap (G1), which she won eased down by 3 lengths from the cream of Australia’s sprinters who were in receipt of considerable weight allowances. All in all, she won no less than 6 Group 1 races and 2 Group 2 races during 2011 and she has not only surpassed SO YOU THINK (NZ) [126] (2010) as the highest rated Australasian horse since the inauguration of WTR in 2004 but one has to go back to the mid / late 1980s to find fillies/mares with comparable ratings under the old International Classifications, namely the French filly MIESQUE [132] (1987 and 1988) and the British trained filly PEBBLES [132] (1985).

    The Singaporean trained older gelding ROCKET MAN (AUS) [125] and the Australian trained three year old colt SEPOY (AUS) [123] additionally confirmed the strength of the sprinting division in Asia / Australasia during 2011. ROCKET MAN (AUS), who was rated 121 in both 2009 and 2010, increased his rating to a mark of 125 following dominant performances in the Dubai Golden Shaheen (G1) (Sponsored by Gulf News) at Meydan and on home turf in the KrisFlyer International Sprint (G1) at Kranji racecourse in May. His mark of 125 would make him the top older male sprinter since WTR commenced in 2004. SEPOY (AUS) [123] was the top Australian juvenile colt and has continued his progress in the first part of his 3yo season with 5 wins including 2 Group 1 races, the Sportingbet Manikato Stakes (G1) at Moonee Valley and the Perri Cutten Caulfield Sprint (G2) at Caulfield and with a rating of 123 from both of those races, it marks him out as the top WTR three year old sprinter since the British trained OASIS DREAM (GB) [123] back in 2003.

    Staying in Asia / Australasia, the Japanese trained three year old colt ORFEVRE (JPN) [123] became only the seventh colt ever to win the Japanese Triple Crown but he managed to go one better than the last Japanese triple crown winner – DEEP IMPACT (JPN) ([124] as a three year old in 2005) and defeat the older generation in the Arima Kinen Grand Prix (G1) at Nakayama racecourse, which included the world joint top older mare (over 12f / 2400m) and 2011 Japan Cup winner BUENA VISTA (JPN) [120] and the Dubai World Cup winner VICTOIRE PISA (JPN) [122]. ORFEVRE’s performance in winning the Kikuka Sho (G1) (Japanese St Leger) with a rating of 122 in the staying category makes him joint top 3yo stayer along with the British trained CONDUIT (IRE) [122] (2008) since the WTR began in 2004.

    Turning to the older horses in Europe, the champion older horse over 10-12 furlongs (2000m / 2400m) was the French trained gelding CIRRUS DES AIGLES (FR) [128] who, having been rated 117 in 2009 and 118 in 2010, improved consistently throughout a typically busy campaign, and achieved his best performance at the inaugural British Champions Day when winning the Qipco Champion Stakes (G1) at Ascot. Among the vanquished that day were the former Australian now Irish trained horse SO YOU THINK (NZ) [126], who was remarkably consistent throughout 2011 and who achieved the same rating as he did in Australia in 2010 in winning three Group 1 races, and the top rated European three year old colt in the 10-12f (2000m / 2400m) category, namely the British trained NATHANIEL (IRE) [126] whose best performance was in winning the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes (G1) (sponsored by Betfair) at Ascot. The French trained stayer AMERICAIN (USA) [123] failed in his bid to win the Emirates Melbourne Cup (G1) in consecutive years but his valiant weight carrying performance in finishing fourth meant that he improved his 2010 rating from 121 to 123 and that rating makes him top older stayer in 2011 and joint top older stayer (along with DEEP IMPACT (JPN) (2006)) since the WTR commenced in 2004.

    The German trained DANEDREAM (GER) [128] was the standout filly among the classic generation in Europe with a scintillating success in the Qatar Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (G1) at Longchamp which followed on from her earlier Group 1 successes in the Rhineland Preis and the Longines Grosser Preis von Baden in Germany. Her rating of 128 ensures her top billing among the classic generation of fillies (along with the great French filly ZARKAVA (IRE) [128], who also won the ‘Arc’) since the commencement of the WTR. Other notable European trained fillies/mares from 2011 include the brilliant but now retired French mare GOLDIKOVA (IRE) [124] who won a further two Group 1 races before finishing second to top 3yo filly miler in Europe, IMMORTAL VERSE (IRE) [121], in the Prix du Haras de Fresnay-le-Buffard Jacques le Marois (G1) at Deauville. IMMORTAL VERSE (IRE) [121] shares the mantle of top 3yo filly miler in the world with the impressive Australian filly ATLANTIC JEWEL (AUS) [121], who won the Schweppes Guineas (G1) at Caulfield, but whose stunning performance over 10f (2000m) in the Wakeful Stakes (G2) at Flemington also makes her the top 3yo filly in the world over that distance, and marks the first time an Australian filly from the classic generation has achieved this WTR accolade.

    It was a relatively undistinguished year for North American racing in 2011, with the top older performance being put up by the four year old colt DROSSELMEYER (USA) [124] in winning the Breeders’ Cup Classic (G1) at Churchill Downs where among the vanquished was 3 time Group 1 winning and top older dirt mare HAVRE DE GRACE (USA) [120]. CALEB’S POSSE (USA) [122] proved the most progressive of the classic generation with his Breeders Cup Dirt Mile (G1) being rated the top dirt performance of 2011 by a 3yo, just ahead of the first two winners of the Triple Crown races, namely ANIMAL KINGDOM (USA) [121] and SHACKLEFORD (USA) [121]. The best performance by a three year old filly on dirt was undoubtedly that of ROYAL DELTA (USA) [119] in winning the Breeders’ Cup Ladies Classic (G1).

    #386322
    Avatar photocormack15
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    Thoughts?

    #386323
    Avatar photoGodolphinArabian
    Member
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    Just Proud that we have the best racehorse in the world :D :D :D :D

    #386324
    Avatar photookjoe57
    Participant
    • Total Posts 189

    SYT was well beaten in the BC Classic, so how come the American horses that beat him don’t figure?

    #386328
    Avatar photocormack15
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    You can listen to BHA handicapper Matthew Tester on the rankings on this iradio podcast –

    http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/PaulStruthers/2012/1/10/Matthew-Tester-on-World-Thoroughbred-Rankings

    (Interesting web address too!)

    #386329
    Avatar photocormack15
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    …and Irish Turf Club handicapper Garry O’Gorman on teh same subject.

    http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/PaulStruthers/2012/1/10/Garry-OGorman-on-World-Thoroughbred-Rankings

    #386332
    Avatar photocormack15
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    • Total Posts 9336

    Black Caviar becomes – by some distance – the highest rated Aus horse since International ratings were introduced.

    The US will no doubt be unhappy. "Curlin is the only US horse in the last seven years to reach a rating of 130," Phil Smith, the British Horseracing Authority’s senior handicapper said. "Caleb’s Posse, on 122, is the lowest-rated American three-year-old champion ever." (From The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jan/10/frankel-world-thoroughbred-rankings-2012)

    So, effectively, the best UK trained 3-y-o was a pound shy of a stone better than his equivalent in the US :shock:

    I don’t think Miss Woodford will take this one lying down…

    Miss W?

    #386333
    Avatar photocormack15
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    Here are Timeform’s ratings for comparative purpose (although rating level is not directly comparable)

    Leading ratings in Racehorses of 2011

    143 Frankel
    135 Black Caviar
    133 Dream Ahead
    133 Excelebration
    133 Canford Cliffs
    133 Cirrus des Aigles

    Full details of Timeform’s ratings can be found here –

    http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/news/2011-was-the-year-of-060112.html

    #386337
    Avatar photofreeradical
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    • Total Posts 336

    The horse that is debatable for me in this list is Nathaniel, won a unsatisfactory King George and was then well beaten in the Champion Stakes. A rating of 126 looks to me as as what someone thinks he is capable of rather than what he has achieved throughout the season.

    Where is Snow Fairy? A line through So You Think would give her a rating of 125, but doesn’t even make to top 20. Which brings me back to Nathaniel a horse she beat in the Champion…..

    #386338
    jose1993
    Member
    • Total Posts 1228

    If the US racing industry could give a toss about these bureaucratic ratings, I’d be stunned. Think they’re aware 2011 was a poor year…… but Phil Smith’s 130 comment is rather amusing given the fact Britain’s only had 2 130+ horses in the same timespan.

    Frankel equalled Sea The Stars.

    Black Caviar’s within the Australian Fillies & Mares allowance margin of Frankel.

    We have no European Champion 2yo again, instead electing for joint champions.

    http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/10/h … a-secrecy/

    As James Willoughby said in October, come on chaps, peel back the curtain and explain why Frankel’s had 1lb added on today, Black Caviar 2lbs – all of 9 months after the Newmarket Handicap – and why you’ve taken the gamble on Camelot’s RP Trophy win.

    Where is Snow Fairy? A line through So You Think would give her a rating of 125, but doesn’t even make to top 20. Which brings me back to Nathaniel a horse she beat in the Champion…..

    3lb weight allowance is factored in.

    #386352
    Eclipse First
    Member
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    The horse that is debatable for me in this list is Nathaniel, won a unsatisfactory King George and was then well beaten in the Champion Stakes. A rating of 126 looks to me as as what someone thinks he is capable of rather than what he has achieved throughout the season.

    Where is Snow Fairy? A line through So You Think would give her a rating of 125, but doesn’t even make to top 20. Which brings me back to Nathaniel a horse she beat in the Champion…..

    Fillies Allowance

    #386360
    Avatar photofreeradical
    Member
    • Total Posts 336

    The horse that is debatable for me in this list is Nathaniel, won a unsatisfactory King George and was then well beaten in the Champion Stakes. A rating of 126 looks to me as as what someone thinks he is capable of rather than what he has achieved throughout the season.

    Where is Snow Fairy? A line through So You Think would give her a rating of 125, but doesn’t even make to top 20. Which brings me back to Nathaniel a horse she beat in the Champion…..

    Fillies Allowance

    Thanks, now understand why Snow Fairy isn’t included. Although still feel 126 for Nathaniel can only be based on his King George run and whether the other horses ran to their ratings is questionable

    #386361
    Avatar photoMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1704

    Black Caviar becomes – by some distance – the highest rated Aus horse since International ratings were introduced.

    The US will no doubt be unhappy. "Curlin is the only US horse in the last seven years to reach a rating of 130," Phil Smith, the British Horseracing Authority’s senior handicapper said. "Caleb’s Posse, on 122, is the lowest-rated American three-year-old champion ever." (From The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jan/10/frankel-world-thoroughbred-rankings-2012)

    So, effectively, the best UK trained 3-y-o was a pound shy of a stone better than his equivalent in the US :shock:

    I don’t think Miss Woodford will take this one lying down…

    Miss W?

    Uh, first of all, Caleb’s Posse isn’t our champion 3yo. Not yet anyway, he’s competing with Shackleford and Animal Kingdom for that honor. The Eclipse Awards are next week.

    Second, how many 130+ rated horses did the UK have? Two.

    Then there’s the attempt to compare dirt and turf runners.. How about performances on the slop, or the multitude of artificial surfaces? It’s a hopeless endeavor.

    Also, nobody here cares about the WTR. It’s not that we don’t want to hear the world opinion of our horses or see them compared to the best in the world. The entire idea of handicap rating systems (i.e. Timeform ratings, Racing Post ratings) is foreign-the closest thing would be the Experimental Free Handicap given to 2yo Derby hopefuls. Quarter Horses, Appaloosas, Paints and Mules do have speed ratings,but they are standardized according to the actual finishing time of the horse, leaving no room for human error – another knock against the WTR.

    The American view is that you can’t evaluate a Thoroughbred based on a single best performance. Is Danedream truly among the top 3 horses in the world? She was on Arc day, but has not approached that form since.

    Even now in the age of abridged careers and early retirements, there is a lot of value placed on an American horse’s ability to repeatedly perform at a high level. It’s why Rachel Alexandra (8 starts) was picked as HOTY over Zenyatta (5 starts), and in part why Zenyatta (7 starts) was picked over Blame (5 starts). It’s also why there was a big broohaha when Ghostzapper was HOTY with a 4-start season. We love to root for Frankel, but with just 5 starts this season he would not be given a 135 on a hypothetical American rating system. (He would probably still be at the top though)

    Another reason for the lack of handicap ratings is that there are just so many races run in America, day after day, including at podunk tracks that don’t even have video of the races. The UK has, what, 25, 30 races a day during the flat season? Try 100+ races weekdays and 140+ on weekends, 364 days a year. We can’t properly rate all of them, and neither can the WTR.

    #386372
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    For the gombeen man who lives in the real world what does and I quote " a pound shy of a stone" mean?

    #386373
    Avatar photoMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1704

    For the gombeen man who lives in the real world what does and I quote " a pound shy of a stone" mean?

    13 pounds. :wink:

    #386379
    Avatar photoHurdygurdyman
    Member
    • Total Posts 1533

    I love Frankel to bits we all do he is an amazing horse who could blow your socks off in an instant when he takes off and leaves them all for dead.

    However you would have to question any rating Timeform or the BHA give him as in comparison to what?

    Visually apart from Secretariat, who nothing can be compared to, he is without doubt one of the best I have ever seen but logically he can never be given a rating as high as Sea Bird II that won’t be disputed. Some would argue his current rating is way too high or Sea Birds is a way too low.

    The reason is simple: Up to now there simply isn’t anything around that can boost Frankel’s rating.

    His latest win came against a horse who won a poorly contested Group 1. Sea Bird beat afield of international superstars in the Arc in what to this day is regarded as the best field ever assembled.

    So the problem isn’t Frankel its the lack of decent opposition. That one exception was Canford Cliffs but his career was cut short claiming something had gone wrong which doesn’t help thing much.

    What we need is a super duper unbeatable 2000 Guineas winner who Frankel the kicks into touch over 10f and in turn the same horse wins the Derby or/and the Arc then Frankel may become the highest rated of all time………..except for Secretariat who in my book will never be equalled let alone passed

    #386381
    Avatar photoMiss Woodford
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    I love Frankel to bits we all do he is an amazing horse who could blow your socks off in an instant when he takes off and leaves them all for dead.

    However you would have to question any rating Timeform or the BHA give him as in comparison to what?

    Visually apart from Secretariat, who nothing can be compared to, he is without doubt one of the best I have ever seen but logically he can never be given a rating as high as Sea Bird II that won’t be disputed. Some would argue his current rating is way too high or Sea Birds is a way too low.

    The reason is simple: Up to now there simply isn’t anything around that can boost Frankel’s rating.

    His latest win came against a horse who won a poorly contested Group 1. Sea Bird beat afield of international superstars in the Arc in what to this day is regarded as the best field ever assembled.

    So the problem isn’t Frankel its the lack of decent opposition. That one exception was Canford Cliffs but his career was cut short claiming something had gone wrong which doesn’t help thing much.

    What we need is a super duper unbeatable 2000 Guineas winner who Frankel the kicks into touch over 10f and in turn the same horse wins the Derby or/and the Arc then Frankel may become the highest rated of all time………..except for Secretariat who in my book will never be equalled let alone passed

    Secretariat is actually a perfect example of my point. For exactly 5 weeks in the spring of 1973 he was a total, utter freak-an unmatched talent. Andy Beyer gave his Belmont performance a retroactive speed figure of 141. But the rest of his career is fairly average for "great" horses-there is little separating him from Damascus, Tom Fool, Spectacular Bid et al. Not that that’s a knock against him, he’s in legendary company, but he’s only a tremendous machine during his Triple Crown run. He lost 5 times to lesser horses. Man O’War was brilliant his whole career (only losing when he was literally facing backwards at the start of the race), hence his position at the top of the Bloodhorse list of the greatest racehorses of the 20th century.

    On the subject of Frankel, I don’t think a horse is defined by who he defeats. Look at his race times, fractions/sectionals, his manner of winning (was he ever threatened by closers? Did he ever look like he was "swimming upstream"?), his versatility over a variety of turf conditions, tracks, and distances (here he is a bit lacking), the general prestige of his stakes races, and so on. I don’t put a lot of stock in the margin of victory-all that really matters is whether the nose is in front of the wire-but the folks at the BHA probably do.

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