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So Jonibake you are saying that being so impressed was partialy due to knowledge of Frankel’s other races.OK.Being impressed by Homecoming Queen was due to the wonder of her leaving such well bred filies behind.Now that the soft ground is returning to Ascot you may see a repeat of the Guineas.
No I am not saying that Andy – sorry if it came across that way.
I said it because I watched the race and it blew me away – like it did most other people.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
How does that relate to King George Winners running in the International?
Admittedly Oh So Sharp was before my time but unfortunately now even Henry would not campaign a 3yo filly in such a manner with all the group 1 filly and mare races. Only 2 3yo fillies have run in the King George since 1988. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how many of Henry’s Derby winners ran in the International.
Neither Oath or Commander in Chief ran again after the King George due to injury. Slip Anchor was also injured after the Derby and didn’t until the September Stakes at Kempton as a prep to the Champion Stakes. He finished 2nd in the former to Sharnazar and was runner up to Pebbles in the Champion.
We will never know but the fact that those two races were run over a shorter trip than the Derby, perhaps indicates that the International may have been a likely target.
Reference Point’s next start after his Derby win was in the Eclipse (2nd to Mtoto), he then won KG, Voltigeur, St Leger before he bombed out in the Arc, possible effect of busy schedule and minor injury week before the race and probably only ran in the Arc because it was definitly his last race.
I quoted your comment because you seemed to suggest that running in the International prior to running in the St.Leger was someting that cannot or should not be attempted, I was was just pointing out that there is a precedent for this by a filly whose classic season so far has almost been mirrored by Camelot.
EF, your comment that only Dahlia has won the KG and gone on to victory in the International is incorrect as both Troy and Duke of Marmalade also did the double.
True about Troy, but Duke of Marmalade won a re-arranged version that took place at Newmarket.
It is also true that since 1985 that Henry has not used the International as a prep race for any of his subsequent St Leger runners. Perhaps suggesting that he had learned the error of his ways by running the filly.
In the 1987 Arc Reference Point was taken on for the lead, he was not as good on top of the ground and some of his contemporaries improved in the summer and had caught up to him by October.
What must be remembered is that Camelot can earn a greater place in history by winning the Triple Crown than he can by defeating Frankel, regardless of the relative merits of either feat.
True about Troy, but Duke of Marmalade won a re-arranged version that took place at Newmarket.
It is also true that since 1985 that Henry has not used the International as a prep race for any of his subsequent St Leger runners. Perhaps suggesting that he had learned the error of his ways by running the filly.
In the 1987 Arc Reference Point was taken on for the lead, he was not as good on top of the ground and some of his contemporaries improved in the summer and had caught up to him by October.
What must be remembered is that Camelot can earn a greater place in history by winning the Triple Crown than he can by defeating Frankel, regardless of the relative merits of either feat.
What relevance does the race being run on a different track have on the fact that the horse won boths races that were run at about the same of year they are usually run. It doesn’t really make it less of an achievement does it.
As for a place in history fot Camelot winning the Triple Crown, sadly you’re probably right. I say sadly because I know, you know and any racing fans knows, that the level of form required to win that Triple Crown is a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way below challenging Frankel or indeed Cirrus des Aigles, Nathaniel and his own stablemate So You Think!
The extra few days that Duke of Marmalade had to recover from the King George make enough difference to disregard the double in comaparison. Horses are not machines and the King George is one of the most exacting races any horse can endure. I suspect the York executive will try to push the Juddmonte back to the Saturday in the fullness of time in an attempt to attract stronger fields.
Winning the triple crown is not about who you beat.It is about the horse’s ability to race over three different distances and over a long season.Nobody remembers who came second in the Triple Crown races.Incidentally John Oxx said after Sea the Stars won the Arc that the Triple Crown was nearly impossible to win since the preparation for the Guineas required a special type of horse.To take a horse bred for the St.Leger and win the Guineas with that horse is a training feat par excellant.
Why cant he go to the King George or Irish Derby then St Leger retire for the season & be campaigned at 4? He has the physique to make a magnificent 4 year old. the last two colts triple crown winners retired to stud at the end of the season. If he can pull off the feat then wouldn’t it be exciting for him to do what Bahram & Nijinsky failed to do?
Or is the lure of a dual hemisphere serving season too much for Coolmore to resist?True about Troy, but Duke of Marmalade won a re-arranged version that took place at Newmarket.
It is also true that since 1985 that Henry has not used the International as a prep race for any of his subsequent St Leger runners. Perhaps suggesting that he had learned the error of his ways by running the filly.
In the 1987 Arc Reference Point was taken on for the lead, he was not as good on top of the ground and some of his contemporaries improved in the summer and had caught up to him by October.
What must be remembered is that Camelot can earn a greater place in history by winning the Triple Crown than he can by defeating Frankel, regardless of the relative merits of either feat.
What relevance does the race being run on a different track have on the fact that the horse won boths races that were run at about the same of year they are usually run. It doesn’t really make it less of an achievement does it.
As for a place in history fot Camelot winning the Triple Crown, sadly you’re probably right. I say sadly because I know, you know and any racing fans knows, that the level of form required to win that Triple Crown is a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way below challenging Frankel or indeed Cirrus des Aigles, Nathaniel and his own stablemate So You Think!
As no one is yet aware of the level of form Frankel may be able to reproduce over 10f then your last statement is merely supposition. Cirrus des Aigles at his best is 4lbs superior to Camelot thus far but Camelot is open to improvement and Cirrus des Aigles has not run up to that level this season.
True about Troy, but Duke of Marmalade won a re-arranged version that took place at Newmarket.
It is also true that since 1985 that Henry has not used the International as a prep race for any of his subsequent St Leger runners. Perhaps suggesting that he had learned the error of his ways by running the filly.
In the 1987 Arc Reference Point was taken on for the lead, he was not as good on top of the ground and some of his contemporaries improved in the summer and had caught up to him by October.
What must be remembered is that Camelot can earn a greater place in history by winning the Triple Crown than he can by defeating Frankel, regardless of the relative merits of either feat.
What relevance does the race being run on a different track have on the fact that the horse won boths races that were run at about the same of year they are usually run. It doesn’t really make it less of an achievement does it.
As for a place in history fot Camelot winning the Triple Crown, sadly you’re probably right. I say sadly because I know, you know and any racing fans knows, that the level of form required to win that Triple Crown is a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way below challenging Frankel or indeed Cirrus des Aigles, Nathaniel and his own stablemate So You Think!
As no one is yet aware of the level of form Frankel may be able to reproduce over 10f then your last statement is merely supposition. Cirrus des Aigles at his best is 4lbs superior to Camelot thus far but Camelot is open to improvement and Cirrus des Aigles has not run up to that level this season.
I am merely suggesting that to beat the likes of Cirrus, Frankel, So You Think, Nathaniel or any of the top level 4 year-olds be it in the Eclipse, King George, International or whatever all aged championship race you care to mention that it will almost certainly require a much higher level of form to be produced than winning the St.Leger.
You even alluded to the fact yourself that for Camelot to beat Cirrus he would have to improve by about 4lbs or so, lets face it to win the St.Leger he could probably run a stone below what it takes to beat Cirrus and still win the Leger!
As for supposition about Frankel over 10F, hand on heart what do you really think would be the bigger ask, to beat Frankel in the Juddmonte or whatever wins the Gordon Stakes, March Stakes and maybe Voltigeur winner in the St.Leger.
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