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The Guineas that Camelot won is, Frankel apart, certainly better than the 2011 renewal. People were seduced by the winning margin but do not look beyond the race. Only Frankel and Roderic O’Connor were able to produce a performance that was rated higher than their pre-Guineas or Guineas rating during their 3yo campaign. Furthermore the pattern rating of the 2011 Guineas was 117.50 which makes it the 2nd lowest this century, only the 2005 race is lower. However in that race more of the runners showed improvement through the season than last year. Already the 2012 Guineas has a pattern rating of 118.00 with a possibility of rising a little.
Admittedly only Camelot has thus far improved on his run in the Guineas but there are several months left yet in the season. Already Power and Caspar Netscher have won a group 1 and group 2 subsequently.Edit: After looking at the BHA 2012 Guide to the Pattern, it appears my calculations were incorrect. The 2011 2000 Guineas achieved a rating of only 114.50 which is below the Group 1 standard.
Why take on Frankel.Frankel is a four year old miler.Camelot is a three yuear old mile and a half horse.To take on a mature four year old champion over a mile and 1/4 so early on in his career would not be in Camelot’s interest.After all Frankel did not take on older horses until he was ready.If Henry had Camelot would he take on Frankel while still a baby?
All perfectly reasonable apart from one thing, Frankel raced as a 4yo, will Camelot?
Rather than being "early on in his career" and being "still a baby" the York race could actually be towards the tail end of Camelot’s career.
It would be in Camelot’s interest to take on Frankel and run well or even beat him.
Similarly you could say why would Frankel take the chance of taking on unbeaten 3yo receiving weight over a trip he’s never run over.
The fact is despite some would have you believe no one knows what the result would be, that’s why we have the races.People can say Camelot didn’t beat much in the Guineas and needs every yard of 12fs but the fact is no one knows.
John Magnier said that if it was 30 years ago he wouldn’t even entertain the thought of running in the Leger, maybe a lot of those in favour on here of Camelot running in the Leger are old codgers as well
As the product of two horses who produced their best performances at the age of four then it would be hoped that Camelot will be kept in training next year. Especially as none of Montjeu’s 3 previous Derby winners were raced beyond their classic year.
What’s with the "old coger" remark? How about wise "old owl"?I saw the past TC winners race in both continents.Secretariate was the best of all.Seattle Slew the most economically successful down the years.Although none can compare with Sunday Silence who was beaten in the final race of the TC.Subsequently won the BC and was sold to Japan.(My favorite race horse of all,could not be given away as a yearling I believe,just like Northern Dancer).Miss Woodford will bear me out on this I hope.
The Guineas that Camelot won is, Frankel apart, certainly better than the 2011 renewal. People were seduced by the winning margin but do not look beyond the race. Only Frankel and Roderic O’Connor were able to produce a performance that was rated higher than their pre-Guineas or Guineas rating during their 3yo campaign. Furthermore the pattern rating of the 2011 Guineas was 117.50 which makes it the 2nd lowest this century, only the 2005 race is lower. However in that race more of the runners showed improvement through the season than last year. Already the 2012 Guineas has a pattern rating of 118.00 with a possibility of rising a little.
Admittedly only Camelot has thus far improved on his run in the Guineas but there are several months left yet in the season. Already Power and Caspar Netscher have won a group 1 and group 2 subsequently.Edit: After looking at the BHA 2012 Guide to the Pattern, it appears my calculations were incorrect. The 2011 2000 Guineas achieved a rating of only 114.50 which is below the Group 1 standard.
The only slight difference is that Frankel beat all bar two of them by more than 17 lengths. BTW have a little look at what Slim Shadey is doing in the States.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Joni you are missing the point. The Guineas is a race where you expect a good proportion of the runners to improve during the season. If I point out to you that the St James’ Palace, Sussex and QEII all achieved the highest rating of their respective races this century perhaps you might understand the point I am making about the poor quality of the race. I know Slim Shadey is doing well this year but that does no more to enhance the 2011 Guineas than Cityscape’s victory in Dubai did to enhance the 2009 Guineas earlier this year.
One could contend that the 2011 Greenham was a stronger race than the Guineas.
Is how far you beat the worst horses in any race particularly relevant? Unless you need group one wins to qualify for the race.
I think I am missing it EF. I’m not sure what the point is? It was not the greatest race? Yes I think we can all agree on that. Was it that terrible? Dubawi Gold is normally round the 117 mark and won the Celebration Mile. Native Khan ran a stormer in the Derby but hasnt been seen since. ROC won the Irish Guineas, Slim Shadey is running well in the States and Casamento won a group 2. Still not great admittedly but the form of this years race has yet to work out either.
My point is that he didnt just beat that field though, he destroyed it. And not just the "worst horses" Andy – all but two of the field. Whatever the strength of the field it is hard to deny the impression he made that day. It was awesome wasnt it? I thought it was anyway. People will talk about it for decades. You only have to listen to the jockeys who rode in the race and in subsequent races against him. The racing world was united in their praise of the horse and what he did that day.
I know you two need a bit more impressing though!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The impression that Homecoming Queen made in the 1000 guineas was also something wonderful. But no matter,impressions are just that.Can’t use them to build mon.
I have no need to be impressed by Frankel who is an exceptional racehorse. However I do believe that the 2000 Guineas performance is over-rated in the context of his whole career.
The Guineas is a race that you hope to see improvement from some of the runners. Casamento won a group 3 not a group 2 but that victory did not represent an improvement on his juvenile form. He ended the year on a lower rating than he began it. While it can be true that some top juveniles run in the Guineas and their form tails off thereafter conversely you still expect some build on that effort. Dubawi Gold has not improved since the Guineas, he is thoroughly exposed and if he won a group 1 race you would have to conclude that it was a substandard event.
Frankel’s performance in the Guineas was good enough to win any Guineas this century, but the quality of horses in the event he won was atrocious and should be regarded as such.
The impression that Homecoming Queen made in the 1000 guineas was also something wonderful. But no matter,impressions are just that.Can’t use them to build mon.
True but it was a one off on bad ground. Frankel has reproduced the form many times.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I have no need to be impressed by Frankel who is an exceptional racehorse. However I do believe that the 2000 Guineas performance is over-rated in the context of his whole career.
The Guineas is a race that you hope to see improvement from some of the runners. Casamento won a group 3 not a group 2 but that victory did not represent an improvement on his juvenile form. He ended the year on a lower rating than he began it. While it can be true that some top juveniles run in the Guineas and their form tails off thereafter conversely you still expect some build on that effort. Dubawi Gold has not improved since the Guineas, he is thoroughly exposed and if he won a group 1 race you would have to conclude that it was a substandard event.
Frankel’s performance in the Guineas was good enough to win any Guineas this century, but the quality of horses in the event he won was atrocious and should be regarded as such.
Atrocious is far too strong a word. You can regard them as such – I wont.
Anyone with eyes could surely see what a perfomance it was. It was not necessarily the final winning distance but the manner in which he did it. Never seen before in a classic, never to be repeated.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I always feel that Dubawi Gold suffered a bit of burnout in the latter half of 2011. On his day, he’s a decent animal. Better than anything Delegator ever was IMO.
There is strong evidence that King George winners have a poor winning record at York, only Dahlia has been successful. If a St Leger horse runs at the Ebor meeting it is either in the Voltigeur or the Ebor itself.
I would also suggest that there may be a sense of duty that the Irish racing public deserve to see Camelot race on home soil in his 3yo career.
Except when it’s trained by Henry Cecil and going for the Triple Crown(of sorts).
Oh So Sharp, if memory serves me right. Won the 1000 narrowly, getting up to win similar style to Camelot in the 2000, then slaughtered Triptych 6L in Oaks again similar style to Camelot’s Derby. After that she ran in the King George narrowly losing out to Petoski, then she ran in the Juddmonte(Benson & Hedges as it was then) and again was narrowly defeated, this time co-incidently by the previous years St.Leger winner Commanche Run who proved he was a tip-top 10F horse as a four year-old.
Oh So Sharp of course went on to win the St.Leger, where her worst performance of the season (possibly of her career) was good enough to land her the filly’s Triple Crown.
How does that relate to King George Winners running in the International?
Admittedly Oh So Sharp was before my time but unfortunately now even Henry would not campaign a 3yo filly in such a manner with all the group 1 filly and mare races. Only 2 3yo fillies have run in the King George since 1988. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how many of Henry’s Derby winners ran in the International.
So Jonibake you are saying that being so impressed was partialy due to knowledge of Frankel’s other races.OK.Being impressed by Homecoming Queen was due to the wonder of her leaving such well bred filies behind.Now that the soft ground is returning to Ascot you may see a repeat of the Guineas.
So Jonibake you are saying that being so impressed was partialy due to knowledge of Frankel’s other races.OK.Being impressed by Homecoming Queen was due to the wonder of her leaving such well bred filies behind.Now that the soft ground is returning to Ascot you may see a repeat of the Guineas.
There were other anomalies aside from the going which played into her favour on the day. I doubt she’ll ever reproduce the same form myself.
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