Was Istabraq turning up a bit of a stitch up?

[prince regent]

<br>kathy

for every conspiricy there must be a reason  and no one whom seems to be taking this theory so seriously has come up with a realistic theory.

  if  the connections seemed  to be that sort of people then there maybe a foundation  but again  with the  financial   assets of connections   i cannot see any  three of them considering  it worth their time to pull stunts   with a horse like istrabeq

in other words  the whole agenda  of this thread is based basically  on  the sort of i know so and so from down the pub  who knows so and so………………….. or without being rude to you  from  some  employee  with a   mischevious sense of humour.

   therefore  it could easily be called malicous gossip  as anything else<br>   <br>    of course if the horse was owned  by some  nomark with a tin pot trainer   then of course there may be some  reason  to do a fast one  (ie money)

  you now go on to saying trainers every day take horses to the track without any chance of winning  a slightly different  edge to your original posting  which has had the non nod wink wink merchants out

  now maybe just maybe   the horse didnt stand a chance   but   u dont find out by leaving  him at home in the stable   and maybe  there was more chance he would have an off day   but   he may on the other hand been motivated by the crowd and had an on day and as long as no harm is done to the horse what harm is their after all  o brien  on no occassion built the horse up  in fact he was very honest  and stated a miricale would be needed  

 you then add what has he done wrong

  im sorry but that contradicts  the  direction of the thread which insinuates he has done something wrong

 

 

[ALI]

I’d like to see it in "big black writing" exactly who you are accussing and what you are accussing them of, there’s to many allegations flying around on here its hard to know who is saying what.

Like This[/size]

<br>Here are some of the allegations that are being dished out:

1) Istabraq was brought over to Cheltenham to bring the Irish support with him.

2) Istabraq only ran in the Champion hurdle so that he could be pulled up infront of the Grandstand. This is thought to be better than retire’ing him in his box.

3) Istabraq was not trained to win the champion (if choosing this option please elaborate on why you have come to this conclusion).

4) Istabraq was not injured during the race.

5) Istabraq’s connections new he was injured before the race but decided to run him anyway.

6) JP, Charlie and Aidan all ploted to pull Istabraq up after the second hurdle so they culd cash in on the 8/1 being offered by Paddy Power for him not to finnish the race.

7) JP bet 100k on Istabraq not to complete the course.

8) JP backed both Landing Light & Valiramix ante-post.

9) O’Brien, JP & Charlie are all crooks.

Remember, Big Black Writing[/size], also try and keep it clear and precise, i’d like to know exactly what it is you are saying………….. thanks in advance!!! <br>

[Colin Little]

Hi Ali, thanks for that….it was all getting very confusing for me.

The answers; in my very humble opinion.

1. Not true, the Irish support was coming anyway!<br>2. The first half mile of the CH is run in front of the stands…if he was injured, where else were they to pull him up?<br>3. Sent over in the hope he still had the ability, or one big race left in him. Not trained to his peak, in case he went wrong before he got there.<br>4. Definitely injured, don’t forget he won lto, he didn’t even reproduce that.<br>5. I find that one scandalous, can’t believe it.<br>6-7. Can’t see how that type of money would get on, if there was any truth in it, or the betting markets got a sniff of it, the CH market would have been in turmoil, almost to the point of suspension. Instead the Irish, with two winners up already, were piling tens of thousands on to Istabraq. Now they may be blindly loyal on occasions, but not stupid, methinks. <br>8. He’d be taking a big risk, if he did, & it got out, his credibility would take a severe knock, I’m guessing that would be more important to him than money.<br>9. No comment.

(Edited by Colin Little at 7:15 pm on Mar. 19, 2002)

[Slippy Blue]

Kathy, you said that this thread is read by lots of people who have not contributed,like myself, untill now that is.

I liken this thread to "rubber-necking" at a car crash on the M25.<br>You don`t want to watch , but you just can`t help yourself……:cheesy: <br>

[sidders]

Guess Who…………..

Now apparently their is an Irish bookie called D.Quinn who was operating at Cheltenham on the Tuesday.This is who told my mate about the 8/1 bet.So someone must know of such a bookie..??

Kathy………………….<br>Opening Scene……Mulder is being sucked up by a green ray into a spaceship.Meanwhile Scully is performing an autopsy on an Alien………….

"Live long and prosper………If you cant,STOP ANNOYING ME"

[Aidan]

Kathy: and here I thought I was off on another one of my rants!!!<br>Sid:it makes it even more hard to believe that an on course bookie on the day would take that sort of bet!!!

[sidders]

No Aiden……..<br>  He was the one that told him about the PaddyPower Bet………….

[DJ]

i`ve only just started to read this thread today and can`t believe some people think there might even be a slight chance that any bookie would take a bet of £100k for Istabraq to be pulled up……..absolute crap !!!!!

in any case i`m sure if you telephoned PP customer services or their PR people they would probably tell you if such a bet was struck, obviously without telling you who struck it…………but then that wouldn`t apply anyway because no such bet was struck!!!

[tooting]

Good stuff Kathy!

And Ali/Colin – cut through the crap and no mistake.

The Will Buckley article in the Observer asked the question what would have happened if Martin Pipe had been the trainer of Istabraq, McCoy on top (and there’s no equivalent to JP, but let’s say Richard Branson was the owner).  

He thought there’d be a right stink. After all, look at the stink over Magnus and Lady Cricket.

There seems to be a cultural difference here (excuse stereotypical generalisations).  Istabraq represented Ireland, as did the trainer, jockey and owner. All those who dared suggest the horse had no chance in the build up to Cheltenham (English sceptics mainly) were given short shrift by the faithful (Irish romantics mainly).

And so it is now.  The English cynics are airing their views (plenty patently ridiculous).  And the Irish are defending what exactly?  

A great horse. A great trainer.  A great jockey. A colourful gambler.  Ireland maybe.  Good on you.  Good on you that you have such belief in your heroes.

I’m with Will Buckley – us English lost such faith years ago – if it had been a Pipe horse there’d be questions in Parliament.    

[ALI]

Tooting, dont forget us Scots and the the Welsh.

<br>And Ali/Colin – cut through the crap and no mistake.

Thats exactly what i have been attempting to do, but there is so much of it on this thread its no easy task my friend.

<br>By the way, whats your take on this? Sorry if i have missed your point, but i’d like to know your theory regarding the mysterious goings on surrounding Istabraq’s injury at Cheltenham.

[tooting]

Yeah sorry Ali – I was going to say Brits – but that wouldn’t have worked would it!!

I think I had my say somewhere on page 1 or 2, and have just been enjoying the ride since.

I think they got caught up in the romance of it all, and hope triumphed over realism.  I don’t think there was anything untoward.  No silly bets etc.

I do think in their heart of hearts they all knew Istabraq couldn’t win.  I think in his own way AOB tried to tell us that.

Frankly virtually all trainers, owners and jockeys are so used to telling half-truths and giving non-statements that I honestly believe they have no idea that each of their bland utterances treats us punters with complete contempt. So I treat them with contempt back.

Hey, and now I own a fetlock of the Racing Forum’s horse, don’t come looking to me for the inside story!

[ALI]

I pretty much agree with that Tooting. I think they new it was a longshot and i give them full credit for giving it a go. I dont think that they thought he had no chance, if that was the case i’m sure he would not have run. But they new he was on the slide and were obviously hope’ing that he would still have enough of his old self left to pull of one last victory.

Lets not forget, Istabraq was injured here, there is no telling how he would have run had this injury not happened.

[prince regent]

<br>esc<br>all jockeys are told to look after their horses and that should be what they are doing anyway there was even this week  a recommendation from the bhb that jockeys should pulll horses up rather then beat them to finish.

   do u really  want to see an ex champion hurdler lame but beaten to complete the course  , it might be an idea if only   to stop kathy starting some sort of conspiricy theory.

 tooting sorry mate i never thought istrabeq would win  and even more to dissapoint you i aint irish either  but i still dont believe this conspricey crap

u mention pipe  not quite the same thing  but blatently obvious magnus was only in the race  to keep the weights down (i pointed this out on a posting to rook some weeks before chelt) not to win the race put mccoy on one to make it favorite  and then land a touch with  illemar.

lady cricket  come on do u really believe this horse was going to run   couldnt find  anyone wensday night  that thought it would be   quite legal i admit but not very sporting

[Aidan]

Aidan O’Brien never said Istabraq "couldnt" win he said it would be very hard for him to win.Escorial it is your opinion that they believed he couldnt win the race not connections.Of course they knew of the mountain they had to climb but this horse has done it before and he deserved his chance.<br>                   Kathy:you feel cheated by Istabraq?What about LLT then in the Gold Cup.This was the horse that the trainer said was "better than ever" repeadily before the race,brushing aside any possiblity of the injury re-occuring.Despite this confidence he never schooled the horse between races for fear of hurting the horse but he never highlighted this.The what about Barton?Had a mild dose of colic and not a mention of it from connections.This is a far cry from what O’Brien and MacManus were saying in the weeks before the race.They were completely honest with the public.As for feeling sorry about those who backed the horse……..I backed Istabraq and it is no one’s fault but my own.I knew the risk I was talking………Aidan O’Brien reported it every day……….but like everyone else who backed it I went on and did it.Who’s fault is that…..JP’s?<br>                   "My own opinion is that the horse was ever going to jump a couple of hurdles then graciously retire him"……………….this is your opinion Kathy.BUt in fairness it has absolutely no basis other than circumstanial evidence?They were talking a huge PR risk by doing this.You earlier stated how you felt sorry for those who backed Istabraq in good faith……….surely pulling Istabraq up, a heavily backed triple champion hurdler,wouldnt be the most popular thing to do in front of such a crowd was it? You describe it as a "gracious" retirement.What was so gracious about it…………as Charile Swan said it was sad.It was sad to witness a horse who a his peak was as his name entitles him to move "like silk" not being able to go a couple of furlongs at a decent pace.It was sad to see a horse who’s hurdling at its prime was a sight to behold barely scrap over 2 hurdles.Absolutely nothing gracious or pleasant in that and I think you underestimate the love Aidan and JP have for the horse if you think they would subject him to that.<br>          Final question Kathy its really just a yes or no answer.Is Aidan O’Brien and John Halley lying when they say the horse injured himself in the race and had to be pulled up?Thats basically what your "opinion" leads to.Yes or No?           <br>                              

[prince regent]

kathy

personally i cant see anything wrong…………….. but i will still start  a thread full of gossip with nod wink wink merchants  to insinuate there was some wrong doing.

  i can make insinuations  and comments  but i cant explain  what the conspiricy was or whom would benifit from it  (ie not third parties)

 i get phone calls  from the course from a source as close as possible  to connections   ( ie the doorman  gateopener  jps toilet sweeper)   my my how well informed u are   perhaps u should start a tipping line  u know  the "  info  straight from the stable" type

    i wont bother with the rest of your  inane speculation   and  gossip

but please   give us some facts not  innuendo based on nod nod wink wink type of facts

aa what financial  rewards  could be offered to a man worth  over £80m   that would entice him to run a horse against his wishes   that would also be economical  for the course   (ie they coudl recoup  the money from increased enterence fees)

  if the connections didnt want to run the horse they could have agreed  for a bonus payment from the course  not to withdraw the horse  until  say 11.00am of the monring of the race  when most people would have already purchased their tickets and set of  for the course.

bb how much money do u think  a bookie would take on a novelty bet    say  £100  or even £500   do you really think jp (or aob)  is so desperate    for   £4k

i wont even comment again on beard so called "facts"

 u are no sheep  but i didnt see this opinion of yours  he was going to jump only 2 fences   posted before the event    and why 2 hurdles  why not one or three hurdles    

 u seem to eb a sheep to your own conspiricy theories

 now as a tv presenter  would say out with the gossip and innuendo  and in with some facts please

nb  i neither thought isty would win or backed him  and had been plumping for another horse for some considerable time

 

(Edited by prince regent at 9:42 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

[Aidan]

As far as I know Istabraq isnt actually offically retired yet.He will be but as of yet it aint offical.<br>              Escorial I think there is a simple answer…….isnt there a giant screen at Cheltenham?!! It was clear for me the second the horse jumped that he was going to be pulled up……….O’Brien knows the horse alot better than me so I suspect he saw it even quicker.<br>       If they did plan to pull the horse up dont you think he would have been a bit more discreet!!! This is a pointless conversation anyway…….the horse was clearly lame behind(as a result from his injury) for all to see as he walked back up the course.<br>             Kathy you failed to answer my question.

[prince regent]

esc

  aob had already stated that somedays the horse worked better than others   so  it would only be natural  if he was concerned  . at york he ran down to the start of mozarts race   something he does not normally do either   but the horse won   the man is a worrier   not unexpected with the horses under his care  as he does like to look after them.

  as u say he didnt go to post very well  so perhaps aob took that as a warning  

  why didnt he use binoculars    i dont know  but henry cecil never does  

many conspiricy theorists  even made a point of the fact that the stewards called for his asistant after the race claiming aob  had not even bothered to leave ireland

kathy<br> was the  injury evidently caused during the race  the reason for his retirement

what do u think kathy  perhaps  they should do as others and run a horse whilst knowing it is lame????????????

<br>

(Edited by prince regent at 10:03 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

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