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Nothing personal, sberry, but we’ll now have the best possible outcome: Thatcherism will be given a state funeral, and her neo-liberalism, now exposed as monstrous folly, will be a matter of ridicule to future generations.
Well, Dave,
It’s a long story, really, but in essence, WWI, the Big Depression and WWII were caused not by mental deficiency on the part of the right-wing leaders of the day, but by their assumptions, which, since they are seldom if ever quantifable, they are chosen by the heart – in their case, by their black hearts. Our assumptions are our life’s work, a spiritual learning process.
And now, it loooks like we face the biggest depression of all, the biggest imaginable, and contrary to the spin, it’s not mostly about mortgages, credit, etc, but by the so-called derivatives:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di … id=3523933
In any event, we face a depression. So that’s what I mean by a state- funeral for Thatcherism, neo-liberalism, loony Friedmanism, or whatever you like to call it. I call it the most primitive, untrammeled greed.
I’ve just been reminded of something I found hard to credit, that I heard years ago: at shopping malls, after a minute or two, old folks were gently moved along by the security people, when they were found sitting on the benches in the walkways. Kind of unsightly, and blemishing the image they desired for the place!!! I kid you not. Is it any wonder, Europeans look upon us with a mixture of horror and pity.
Grimes,
Please explain to me exactly what the current economic crisis has to do with Thatcherism.
Nothing.
If it wasn’t for Thatcherism we would all have been screwed about 25 years ago.
That’s not exactly right Benny.
The free market, economics according to Adam Smith was a cornerstone of Thatcherism. The current crisis is all about confidence tricks and the illusionary values of non-existent assets, the same as the Enron scam.
These free market capitalists aren’t going to paying anyone’s pension in 20 years time, let’s not be kidded.
IMO, Thatcher ruined this country and made it the mess it is today. I hope the economic armaggedon that some are predicting doesn’t happen but it seems to me that it’s only a matter of time.
I hope the economic armaggedon that some are predicting doesn’t happen but it seems to me that it’s only a matter of time.
All the talk at the moment seems to revolve around the safety of people’s savings
Little mention of personal debt – loans, credit cards, mortgages etc which surely far exceed personal savings
If we do face "economic armageddon" and the banking system/housing market collapses and these debts therefore written off wouldn’t the majority of the population actually be better off?
Just very glad I took my pension about 18 months ago. By luck rather than good judgement as my accountant advised me not to
What do they know
Dave,
I understand that free market ecomonics (and particularly the switch from Keynsianist policies to monetarism, or put simply using monetary policy as the primary method of controlling the economy instead of fiscal policy), was a key part of Thatcherism. It’s what made it so successful.
It is a big leap from saying that to saying that the current economic crisis, which is all down to the repackaging of irresponsibly created mortgage debt as mortgage backed securities (whose risk level was no longer easy to assess), can in any way be blamed on Thatcher.
I just don’t see how it can. Ineffective regulation of the financial sector is to blame, imo.
Maybe giving all of our countries assets to the private sector could be though?
Maybe shutting down manufacturing and replacing those jobs with silly service sector jobs could be as well?
Maybe deregulating credit could be as well?
.. there’s no point beating about the bush, the taxpayer has to bail out the private sector constantly and the only people that benefit from this are the greedy barstewards in the private sector, including some politicians. The free market is supposed to look after itself isn’t it?
yeah benny and we are all getting screwed now and its going to get worse and i still blame thatch for this and her greed ethos.
as usual the working man is going to pay for capitalist greed and this goverment has done bugger all to protect the working man .If Benny doesn’t accept the role of Thatcher and Reagan in the deregulation of credit and all that it led to – and, incidentally, many other things that need regulation – it can only be intentional and deep-seated.
I don’t doubt that Benny blames the poor for being poor, either. But that’s nothing new. It goes back to the earliest biblical times. It’s interesting that throughout the Bible, the rich are referred to in apposition to wickedness, and the poor, in apposition to virtue, the true Israel; which, of course, is not to say that all rich people are wicked and all poor people are virtuous, but that’s the trend, whether in the former case, actively, or by monied-class complicity.
She was the personification of fathomless greed and a lack of concern for the victims of her greed, shared by her fellow Tories and subequently NuLab;
And you know what? You probably think you’re financially secure. Well, you, along with the rest of the world, may be in for a very, very rude shock;
http://www.opednews.com/articles/IT-S-T … 8-354.html
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2008/10/t … ut-in.html
And there’s this I’ve just seen:
"As anyone who has followed the foreclosure crisis closely knows, there is currently a loophole in federal bankruptcy law that allows John McCain to protect his second through seventh homes and yachts and planes if he were to declare bankruptcy, but doesn’t allow you and me to save our primary residence that we live in. Barack Obama has called for closing this loophole, Joe Biden has called for closing this loophole, and John McCain has defended it to benefit his banker buddies."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/3 … 623/618748
Wickedness that simply beggars belief.
And now, it loooks like we face the biggest depression of all
Thats complete rubbish frankly. There isnt one leading economist who has even come close to suggesting that this would be on the scale of the 1930’s. With China and india et al continuing to develop quickly, there is still a strong motor behind the worlds economies
Maybe shutting down manufacturing and replacing those jobs with silly service sector jobs could be as well?
there’s no point beating about the bush, the taxpayer has to bail out the private sector constantly and the only people that benefit from this are the greedy barstewards in the private sector
Dave. You are making no sense whatsoever
Closing down unprofitable nationalised industries is suddenly all wrong and then bitching about goverment rescuing (ie nationlisation) of private failing manufacturers
It is a big leap from saying that to saying that the current economic crisis, which is all down to the repackaging of irresponsibly created mortgage debt as mortgage backed securities (whose risk level was no longer easy to assess), can in any way be blamed on Thatcher.
Agree..Its ludicrous
If anyone is to blame it is the credit rating agencies and perhaps external bank auditors (again). Some stronger legislation is required but not a ridicluous OTT clampdown on all future credit and the dismal dead hand of the "controls" that were in place in the seventies
Barbara Ehrenreich expresses my point in this quote from her opening sentence in an article in Common Dreams entitled the Communist Manifesto turns 160;
"This year marks the 160th anniversary of The Communist Manifesto and capitalism — aka "free enterprise"– seems willing to observe the occasion by dropping dead."
why worry when Dave Cameron [aka Lord Snooty] is going to save us in a year or so’s time…..
Some stronger legislation is required but not a ridicluous OTT clampdown on all future credit and the dismal dead hand of the "controls" that were in place in the seventies
Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"He points out, chillingly, that banks make money from two sources. They take interest on our current accounts and charge us for services. This is easy, safe money. But they also take risks, big risks, with the whole panoply of loans, mortgages, derivatives and any other weird scam they can dream up. “Banks have never made a penny out of this, not a penny. They do well for a while and then lose it all in a big crash.”
Note that Taleb doesn’t prescribe a clampdown on all future credit at all. Just the demented freeing up of it beyond all reason – except that the wide-boys at the top engineered it, in order to create a bubble, whereby they could continue to exploit people they had already impoverished beyond recall, by robbing their children and grandchildren – future generations!
One day there was bound to be a reckoning. Didn’t you read Joe Bageant’s explanation of what underpins the US bail-out (which of course correlates to our own bubble in Europe).
Incidentally, Dave, that is a vicious slander on Adam Smith by the far right. He clearly stated that he believed in a mixed economy, and fairly-apportioned income tax, not the proliferation of flat taxes, which throw a hideously unfair burden on the mass of the population. Very, very akin to so-called Old Labour: the Labour Party, properly so-called.
All he was saying is: Don’t throw the baby out with the bath-water! Be sure to pounce on the farmyard-animals-descended-from-the-wild-boar of the business world, once they snuffle out the truffles or they’ll immediately snaffle them – and you’ll be left sniffling. Dogs are more susceptible to restraint, and are favoured by truffle-hunters accordingly.
What Smith was actually reminding people of was a very ancient Christian precept, namely, that Grace builds upon Nature. Even the meanest of human beings (and I understand that not all businessmen are devils incarnate, despite the system’s best endeavours) have abilities that can be harnessed for the common good. Just don’t trust them to submit willingly to the yoke. In fact, Smith all buts tars them as inveterate criminals, wholly untrustworthy, and ever ready to conspire against the public good.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/23/4046
This so-called "free market" (laughable misrepresentation) of the Chicago Boys is nothing but highly-sytematised depredation on the public, driven by unmitigated greed.
Incidentally, their economic "policy" brought economic ruin on Chile.
"The rigorous application of neoliberal rules typicaly requires dictatorship, because people don’t like them. The most rigorous application was in Chile, after the Pinochet coup in 1973. That’s when economists from the University of Chicago became involved. They could do anything they wanted. The country was under the rule of a vicious police state, so nobody could object. By 1982, under the influence of the Chicago Boys, Chile suffered probably the worst economic collapse of its history. The government had to step in and bail out virtually the whole of private industry and the banks. In fact, Chileans called this "the Chicago road to Socialism."
WHAT WE SAY GOES – Conversations on US Power in a Changing World, by Noam Chomsky.
The right wing always leads to war and economic ruin: WWI, the Great Depression, WWII and now what, despite your questioning of it, Clivex, looks like developing into a more powerful version of Armageddon than any of us could have imagined.
As for no economists voicing similar thoughts, that’s plain wrong. They were doing it before this this bail-out, but few, even among its principals and promotors expect it to be more than a temporary palliative. Although it should be said that, publicly, at least, they are not all agreed on the degree of its severity.
If this doesn’t scare anyone witless, I don’t know what could:
"The Bank for International Settlements recently reported that total derivatives trades exceeded one quadrillion dollars – that’s 1,000 trillion dollars. How is that figure even possible? The gross domestic product of all the countries in the world is only about 60 trillion dollars. The answer is that gamblers can bet as much as they want. They can bet money they don’t have, and that is where the huge increase in risk comes in."
….. taken from this link:
Thatcher and Lamont were bosom pals of Pinochet. Read the first article about some of the handiwork of his goons. It compares unfavourably with the Nazi death camps. Incidentally, they liked to torture people with their relatives just a few feet away.
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