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Incidentally, their economic "policy" brought economic ruin on Chile.
What??/
its the strongest economy in latin america. Highest GDP. higher than Venezuelas, whos oil revenues are beings squandered by an idiot
Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"He points out, chillingly, that banks make money from two sources. They take interest on our current accounts and charge us for services. This is easy, safe money. But they also take risks, big risks, with the whole panoply of loans, mortgages, derivatives and any other weird scam they can dream up. “Banks have never made a penny out of this, not a penny. They do well for a while and then lose it all in a big crash.”
.. looks like he hit the nail on the head. Some great posts from you there Grimes. When it all turns to shite someone smoewhere knows why and has made a fortune out of it.
Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"He points out, chillingly, that banks make money from two sources. They take interest on our current accounts and charge us for services. This is easy, safe money. But they also take risks, big risks, with the whole panoply of loans, mortgages, derivatives and any other weird scam they can dream up. “Banks have never made a penny out of this, not a penny. They do well for a while and then lose it all in a big crash.”
.. looks like he hit the nail on the head. Some great posts from you there Grimes. When it all turns to shite someone smoewhere knows why and has made a fortune out of it.
Yep. I reckon Nassim must have won another bundle!
Incidentally, their economic "policy" brought economic ruin on Chile.
What??/
its the strongest economy in latin america. Highest GDP. higher than Venezuelas, whos oil revenues are beings squandered by an idiot
If you’re up to date with your figures, that would be because they abandoned loony Friedman’s neo-liberal economic madness.
You’re just not reading the articles under the links I’m positng Clivex or you’d have woken up by by now. IT’S OVER. Truly. Even the blasted NuLab loonies have said that the future economic scene is going to be very different from NuLab/Tory’s policies hitherto.
And as regards Firedman’s role in Chile, why not buy the little book, WHAT WE SAY GOES by Noam Chomsky? I don’t know if it’s in paperback, but it’s only £15 in hardback.
As a professor of lingusitics, he was a revolutionary thinker in the field, but since turning his mind to geopolitics he tells it as it it is – which is usually the opposite of the propaganda we get all the time from our corporate media. Indeed, at one time, he was cited by the FBI as Public Enemy Number One. As a scholar, he is careful to give all necessary references concerning statistics and other data.
Read and inwardly digest this again, Clivex:
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2008/10/t … ut-in.html
Thatcher and Reagan were the arch-deregulators – and not just of credit. Right-wing governments always lead to war and economc ruin. It’s happened again and again, because their greed knows no bound. Indeed, loony-toons Friedman specifically opined that ethics had nothing to do with business, but fortunately the world is ordered in such a way that ethics and good sense go hand-in-hand, so to speak. Physical resources and the amount of money people can be robbed of are finiite.
Why don’t you just go and live in the Soviet Union Grimes?
Oh, because it doesn’t exist. Communism doesn’t work, and neither does pure, unfettered capitalism. A mixed economy is the inevitable consequence, where market are allowed to efficiently allocate resources in a way which communist planning can never hope to, whilst small scale government intervention corrects any incidence of market failure.
Where we disagree is the degree of intervention necessary.
Thatcher saved this country from economic failure after a dreadful decade in the 70s, and stopped the unions from crippling us all.
Greatest PM we’ve ever had.
Why don’t you just go and live in the Soviet Union Grimes?
Oh, because it doesn’t exist. Communism doesn’t work, and neither does pure, unfettered capitalism. A mixed economy is the inevitable consequence, where market are allowed to efficiently allocate resources in a way which communist planning can never hope to, whilst small scale government intervention corrects any incidence of market failure.
Where we disagree is the degree of intervention necessary.
Thatcher saved this country from economic failure after a dreadful decade in the 70s, and stopped the unions from crippling us all.
Greatest PM we’ve ever had.
Well, there’s still Cuba, and I’d be more than happy to live there or under a similar regime. China was another wonderful place. School-teachers who actually worked there among the people commented on TV about what about what an extraordinarily happy and law-abiding people they were.
They probably have "topped" your heroes of big business in no time, flat.
Still, it would have been kinder than the death by inches your pals have been meting out to the poorer folk in the population by their massive underfunding of the welfare state, and pillaging taxes from them with other lower earners. .You’re just barmy, Benny. You’ll see. Friedman has been comprehensively discredited and all his acolytes, beginning with the political puppets, Thatcher and Reagan. that’s all they were: puppets of the super-rich and super-powerful of whose existence you and I, indeed very few people, ever hear about.
Around the time of WWI Woodrow Wilson, referring to them, said that even he and his colleagues only dared speak of them in whispers.
Here’s something for you and Clive:
Well, there’s still Cuba, and I’d be more than happy to live there or under a similar regime. China was another wonderful place. School-teachers who actually worked there among the people commented on TV about what about what an extraordinarily happy and law-abiding people they were.
Oh yes China where if you show dissent you are quite likely to be locked up or executed for what most other countries consider to be minor crimes.
Plus, of course you would be unable to debate the pros and cons of various systems, as you can in this society you seem to despise so much.
Or do you just want the best of both worlds?
You’re just barmy,
That is a subjective comment – some may say the same about your views
Friedman has been comprehensively discredited and all his acolytes,
By whom – your left wing friends who wouldn’t know objectivity if it smacked them between the eyes
Here’s something for you and Clive:
What the hell does that prove – all you are doing is posting references to articles coming from non-credible sources. this latest offering is just one persons opinion. No more, no less, valid than any others and by the speakers own admission "no expert or scholar"
As Benny suggests if you really hate and despise the system here so much why don’t you go to Cuba or China. I would suggest the answer is you know which side your bread is buttered and you know, for all it’s faults, the system you currently live under is far better than the alternative you are espousing.
It is so very easy to "talk up" the utopian systems you espouse when sitting in the comfort of the system under which you live. So instead of talking the talk tell us why you are not walking the walk.
Or are you the same of those politicians who tell the people their children must go to comprehensive schools where the brighter children will be dragged down whilst, at the same time, sending their children to private schools.
I was going to respond to Grimes’ unsubstantiated ramblings and irrelevant article quotations, but I see that Paul has done it for me.
Thanks Paul.
Grimes, just because somebody else has written it in an article, or on some left-wing forum, doesn’t make it true, or entitle you to use it in an debate.
PS. There is no need to get personal. This place is supposed to be somewhere we can debate issues without resorting to insults when somebody doesn’t agree with you. This is a free society, and unlike some of the places who use your system of government, you can’t just chop off the heads of people who have different opinions from your own.
IMO, the capitalist model has served the human race well, if you live in Western Europe, North America or Australasia, in other words roughly 1/6th of the worlds population. The other 5/6ths have seen no benefits at all and are probably no better or worse off than they would have been without it.
Please don’t disagree with me or call me names or I will cry until tomorrow, at least.
On another note, the banks have been charged with removing credit from the system, both good and bad. We’ll soon see what the effect of this will be, there’s no need to have a debate about it really. If you are unlucky you will lose your job if not then you will keep it.
Thatcher’s main reason for shutting mines, steel works and ship yards was to move people from being employed in the public sector to the private sector. The idea being that private companies would compete and provide a more cost effective service to the tax payer. Well, here we are 20 years on and I defy anyone to tell me of anything that’s got cheaper. In Ayrshire where I live, around 70% of the population still work for the government .. all I can say is what a dramatic failure it has all been.
Thatcher saved this country from economic failure after a dreadful decade in the 70s, and stopped the unions from crippling us all.
Greatest PM we’ve ever had.*sigh* Tories. Tories. A plague more resistant to reason than the bubonic variety is to penicillin.
Even the Daily Mail (the Tories personal Volkischer Beobachter ), have recently argued that the Beast changed the social fabric of this country for the worse.
In fact, the Mail argued that she pretty much tore it apart.
What are the income distribution figures now? In 1979, I think it was about 1:200 from the lowest paid to the highest paid. Now, I read it’s more divergent than the United States. The Bollinger dribbled on frilly shirts in London restaurants is now worth more than some people take home in Grimsby.
And this is a GOOD thing is it?
She deserves a state funeral for allowing this infrastructure to develop, does she?I see you’re from Bristol, BennyB. Thatcher helped the South tremendously didn’t she – at the expense of the North to the point where the Centre of Policy Research recently suggested that the people of Sunderland migrate southward because their city (once a thriving proud city of shipbuilders), was beyond regeneration.
Where I was growing up in a small pit village North of Nottingham destroyed after the strike, a mother of a school friend used to go out on the streets of Radford in Nottingham on Friday nights to earn enough money to feed her three kids the following week. She was a beautiful woman, a real small town classic, with a hint of Faye Dunaway in her prime. Her ex-miner husband who struck for months turned a blind eye – and so did we.
When Thatcher dies, Benny B, at least half the country are going to party for a month, including me. I’m going to laugh and laugh and laugh. And I’m going to raise a glass to her death – the same toast she and her cabinet of fools offered to the death of the working class and my village.
The Greatest PM in our history? She won’t even be the greatest PM in Hell.
Hope this helps.
*Grimes, the superb Allende history is wasted here. Try hunting for reference material in back copies of The Eagle. Comics are as far as they stretch on the right.
I live in Bristol, I’m not from Bristol.
I was born in Glasgow, have lived all over the country, my mother is and father was from the north.
My point is made purely on economic grounds, not through any north/south prejudice, nor any class prejudice.
You’re entitled to your opinion, and I shall raise a glass with you when the time comes, albeit for different reasons.
IMO, the capitalist model has served the human race well, if you live in Western Europe, North America or Australasia, in other words roughly 1/6th of the worlds population. The other 5/6ths have seen no benefits at all and are probably no better or worse off than they would have been without it.
To be fair Dave, if Capitalism benefitted everyone it wouldn’t really be Capitalism, would it?
Max,
"working class" "north south divide"
We’re in the 21st century why drag up 19th century concepts.
As for the pay divide between rich and poor – what precisely is the problem with that? Those who are low paid have the opportunity to get off their backsides to improve their lot if they really want to. In most cases they won’t because they know full well they can get the state to subsidise their breeding, smoking and drinking.
Virtually all animal species have a hierarchy, call it a pecking order, some will always be better off than others. Accept it, get over it!!!
There are many people who have things I don’t have, do I get a chip on my shoulder over it? No ….. if I want something I do not have I get out and earn the money to pay for it – I don’t expect anyone else to provide it for me.
I come from what you would call a “working class” family. My father unskilled and my parents always struggling but making sure we were looked after and loved.
I am now what you would probably call “middle class” – how, why?
I made an effort to get an education to make sure I would not face the problems my parents faced. I worked hard, starting at the bottom and ending up with a very good job. I was very paid well and worked bl**dy hard for it and now I am enjoying the benefits of a final salary pension – which I paid for, doing a job I enjoy.
So don’t you go on about the struggling, oppressed, working classes and all that cr*p – it is s state of mind. If the ambition is there people can get on and make of their lives what they want. If the ambition is not there why why should others support them?
One other observation – a large number of the city traders who are so despised come from what would be called working class backgrounds.
Sorry if I’ve seemed personal about it. I don’t feel animosity towards posters, just the massive harm done to the country and the world by those they naively support.
If you want to learn about propaganda, here’s a good place to start (especially post #4, the 7th down):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di … id=3529434
It helps to have truth on your side. Promulgating it is also propaganda, but good, truthful propaganda. There is a word of difference.
And here’s some more from that notorious "leftie" paper, the Telegraph:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di … 103×391123
Oh, and here are some more "leftie" lies:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di … 103×391123
Maxilon, funny you should mention the Daily Mail. The Thatcher supporters on here seem to know little of our history between the wars. At one time, before WWII, Hitler was so popular among the monied people of this country that Hailsham (then "Hogg") canvassed as the Tory candidate for Oxford using the slogan, "A vote for Hogg is vote for Hitler"! AND HE WON THE SEAT.
Of course, it is pretty well-know that the DM had banner headlines on their front page praising Mussolini and his Blackshirts to the skies. Some months ago, one of their tame historians opined that the rational position was to come to terms with Hitler, as Halifax had recommended.
Had Hitler been British, who can reasonably doubt that The Mail would have enthused at the prospect of a state funeral for Hitler just as enthusiastically, when he finally ponked it. Or Mussolini. I recently read a brief quotation of Churchill’s to the effect that Mussolini was the greatest leader ever – I think in the Mirror. I still find that hard to believe, despite his hostility to fascism being a later development, when he realised that Britain’s empire empire and hegemony were immensely imperilled. That’s not to say I don’t admire the old boy. Ther was much to admire about his character in his extraordinarily active old-age, and to be very grateful for, indeed.
So, there is every reason to believe
As for the pay divide between rich and poor – what precisely is the problem with that? Those who are low paid have the opportunity to get off their backsides to improve their lot if they really want to. In most cases they won’t because they know full well they can get the state to subsidise their breeding, smoking and drinking.
Virtually all animal species have a hierarchy, call it a pecking order, some will always be better off than others. Accept it, get over it!!!
Well Paul, there are several problems with this angle of attack. For starters it depends how big the divide is, In Japan for example the divide is very small compared to a country like the US where the divide is very large. What about social mobility? Is it possible for someone from a very poor background to become well off and have a nice life through the fruits of their labours? It would appear that the escape from the life of poverty is getting harder and harder, not easier.
My whole family escaped from it in the terrible 70’s, I think a family today in a similar situation would not be able to do it, who could afford to buy a house with the Mother not working and the Father earning just above the minimum wage, bringing up two kids?
Marble,
Maybe you should take the time to learn just what Maggie did and you might understand why a generation of voters will never vote Tory. I still remember my 16% Mortgage rate, the miner’s strike, whole communities decimated by unemployment etc
This concept of left & right is redundant. Tony Blair took the middle ground ages ago and now both the Tories & Labour have policies mixed from all parts of the political spectrum.
This current situation is a global problem and little to do with any one country’s government. The financial markets are global. America has borrowed trillions more than it can afford and the international banks have fallen over themselves over the years to loan it to them irresponsibly. If anyone is to blame it’s the rich speculators (many of them good Tories) on the financial markets and all of us who took all the cheap credit thinking it would never run out.
The fact is that Labour is behind in the polls because they are a government in their third term blighted by loads of unpopular issues such as Iraq, the international economy etc. Its nothing to do with what the Tories have done. Indeed what have they done?? Cameron has just kept the Tories quite and benefited from the unpopularity of Labour. What evidence is there really that Cameron, a novice, would do any better than Brown? There is not any because there are no policies and indeed he was part of the Tory’s past financial mess. I have no confidence Cameron and the Tories are competent to get us out of this global financial mess.
The liberals are clearly the most consistent of the parties when you look at policies. But how many of the voters care about manifestos? How many voters know more than what is on the front pages of some tabloid? It’s all Brown v Cameron in some kind of presidential press hype. Its easy to try and blame Brown for everything in some kind of mob culture. I for one do not like bullying and when everyone is picking on someone I tend to look for reasons to defend them.
The one thing I am pretty confident in is that eventually the wheels will come off the Tory party soon. Unfortunately that might be after they are in government. Once they start to be pinned down on policies such as Europe and the Economy then all of the old personalities and grudges will come to the surface and they will self destruct. Most of the old characters are all still there along with a few new nutters. Cameron has done well to stifle them and keep them quiet for now.
In Scotland it really does not matter anyway. The Tories are a minority party here. However if they form the next UK Government we are looking at the break up of the Union in quick time.
Marble,
I did not intend to talk down to you but find your accusation that I am not being objective is laughable coming from you.
I did not say I was a labour supporter and I did not say Gordon Brown was my hero. I simply put up some defence of a man and the labour party where it seems nowadays to be the in-thing to have a go at them. As I said I do not like this mob culture and my natural instinct is to defend someone. Perhaps you should read what I said properly. I could be a liberal, SNP or BNP etc.
Whether this country is in a better or worse position is impossible to determine right now and a mute point. We might be in a better or worse position than any county but we might all be going down the toilet together. Gordon Brown might pull us out of it brilliantly and then Cameron will be worried? Whatever he does he will get criticised.
Example: Quote you:
“And finally, if you think Labour are a leftist party & free of blame, why can’t the former Iron Chancellor guarantee all savings like the Irish government did? “
So he is being criticised for not underwriting nearly a trillion pounds of savings with British taxpayer’s money. If he does do it he will be criticised for doing it to late or squandering tax payers money. It would be refreshing to hear the Tories actually coming out beforehand and saying just what Gordon should do beforehand rather than sitting sniping from the fence and playing both hands. If they told us what they would do to get us out of this mess then I might be a bit more inclined to think they were more than political opportunists.
No one really knows if the Tories will make a bigger mess of things in the future. You are entitled to your opinion and vice versa. Just do not try to tell me what my opinion is.
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