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On C4 I’ve just seen Arkle win by a distance at Sandown, carrying 12.10, breaking the course record by 17 seconds
and scampering the final hill looking like he could go around again.
I love Kauto Star, but would Imperial Commander have ever run Arkle to a short head?
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Although I was but knee-high to a grasshopper at the time, my recollection is that Arkle did not always win – even in handicaps. After all he did lose two Hennessy Gold Cups fair and square, one to Mill House and another to my particular favourite, Stalbridge Colonist. I still recall that as an epic thriller of Homeric proportions. And Arkle only won one King George, which some of us regard as the genuine championship 3M test.
Greg Wood should always be taken, I’ve come to feel, with rather a large cellar of salt. He is too prone to contrary band-wagon hopping for my taste; and though his writing style is nicely functional, his polemics are shallow. Did anyone else see Aussie Jim McGrath wiping the floor with him for logic and articulacy on one of those “Fallon debates” on ATR? It was a disappointing No Contest, in which Mr Wood came across as a self-righteous featherweight.
His Arkle/Kauto Star comparisons strike me as straining to find an angle, rather than adding value to this amusing, if ultimately unfathomable, debate on two titanic talents.
Although I was but knee-high to a grasshopper at the time, my recollection is that Arkle did not always win – even in handicaps. After all he did lose two Hennessy Gold Cups fair and square, one to Mill House and another to my particular favourite, Stalbridge Colonist. I still recall that as an epic thriller of Homeric proportions. And Arkle only won one King George, which some of us regard as the genuine championship 3M test.
Arkle won 22 of his 26 Chases and only ran twice in the King George at Kempton – in ’65, when winning by a 30 lengths and again in ’66, when conceding 21Ibs to his opponents – and running half the race with a cracked pedal bone, where he only just failed to see off Dormant – a horse he had beaten out of sight in the previous year’s race and in the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Giving 35Ibs to Stalbridge Colonist, in retrospect, was no mean feat at Newbury. His defeat in the 2m 5f Massey-Ferguson at Cheltenham, carrying 12st 10Ilbs is considered by many as his greatest ever performance; finishing a length 3rd behind two good horses, Flying Wild (top class mare) and Buena Notte ( top novice), whom he conceded 26Ibs and 32Ibs.
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Although I was but knee-high to a grasshopper at the time, my recollection is that Arkle did not always win – even in handicaps. After all he did lose two Hennessy Gold Cups fair and square, one to Mill House and another to my particular favourite, Stalbridge Colonist. I still recall that as an epic thriller of Homeric proportions. And Arkle only won one King George, which some of us regard as the genuine championship 3M test.
Arkle won 22 of his 26 Chases and only ran twice in the King George at Kempton – in ’65, when winning by a 30 lengths and again in ’66, when conceding 21Ibs to his opponents – and running half the race with a cracked pedal bone, where he only just failed to see off Dormant – a horse he had beaten out of sight in the previous year’s race and in the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Giving 35Ibs to Stalbridge Colonist, in retrospect, was no mean feat at Newbury. His defeat in the 2m 5f Massey-Ferguson at Cheltenham, carrying 12st 10Ilbs is considered by many as his greatest ever performance; finishing a length 3rd behind two good horses, Flying Wild (top class mare) and Buena Notte ( top novice), whom he conceded 26Ibs and 32Ibs.
You also forget to mention that the run in the Massey Ferguson was the week after winning the Hennessey under 12st 7lb hence the 3lb extra at Cheltenham and, if memory and John Oaksey’s write up in his good book “Oaksey on Racing” serves, the great one was coming again up the Cheltenham Hill.
Too right it was a no mean feat to give 35lbs to Stalbridge Colonist. It was a stellar ride by that master tactician, Stan Mellor and he only won by half a length.
On a strict line of form through that race Arkle would have won the next three Gold Cups in a canter as Stalbridge Colonist was close to winning the next two and behind them at Newbury was What A Myth who won the 1969 Gold Cup at the age of 12 the same age as Arkle, by now in retirement, was that year.
I had already trotted out the Massey Ferguson performance on page 2 but if anyone wants to say the same thing feel free – perhaps some of those under 35s might actually read it.
I would dearly love to see Kauto Star run in the Racing Post Chase, but I suspect that it is a pipe-dream now that a third Gold Cup is on the agenda, and Nicholls/Smith don’t strike me as the kind of mento be swayed by an internet petition!
No-one is suggesting that Kauto Star isn’t a great. But the fact remains, the only chance he has of ever running to a figure like Arkle did, is if he faces similar conditions. If he can run to 191 by beating Nacarat off levels, it would be most interestng to see how he’d get on against him giving him 2 stonee.
David,
Does anyone know what the best rating Arkle put up in a non-handicap?Value Is EverythingI dont see the point really , who cares , and how on earth do you possibly compare 2 horses 40plus years apart
I have seen both , and feel lucky to have done so , in my mind I feel Arkle would break Kautos heart with his jumping , but we will never know for sure
Still I salute them both . they advertise all that is good about the jumping game
Ricky
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Your right we will never know but tell me something please.
Have you ever watched video replays on say ATR to decide which of two chasers you think are going to win the 2.30 at such and such? 2 chasers with no form connection other than their ratings made up by someone you don’t even know?
To me it’s no different than comparing Kauto Star to newcomer Long Run. Kauto is faster jumps better and has more acceleration.
Unfortunately not many vidoes are available so you had to be there but Sir Peter was right Arkle was a freak of nature who transferred his grandsire Nearco’s flat ability to jumps.
Perhaps we shouldn’t make comparisons. Kauto is a brilliant horse in his own right comparing him to a horse that comes straight out of a Marvel Comic can hardly be called fair
A "freak of nature" who was possibly only slightly better than a stablemate at the time?!
I’m not putting Arkle or Flyinbolt down but could they be two "freaks of nature"?
Colin
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Are you related to Barry Brogan
Great horse for sure but at the time very few agreed with Timeform rating him so highly.
They partially based his proximity oh his Massey Ferguson win over Scottish Memories. Flyingbolt had given him less weight than Arkle but beat him by l4 lengths more than Arkle. Arkle was beaten that year in the Masssey Ferguson with a massive 12st10lbs on his back over not his best trip and Scottish Memories just happened to be in the race. That same year Arkle beat Scottish Memories giving him 35lbs by a very easy length but over a trip that Scottish Memories was far better suited to.
The other comparison was made though Height of fashion as both beat her in the Irish Grand National. What they fail to mention is a few important factors
Height O’Fashion wasn’t in the same form the year Flyingbolt beat her and Arkle was just coming off his 1st win over Mill House in the Gold Cup and very likely was on a downward spiral after being trained to his peak for that one day.
The following season Arkle was rested for 6 weeks before being seen again and won the Whitbread. Despite that Tom Dreaper decided the following season not to go the well again and in future Arkle would end his season in the Gold Cup.
The most imprortant thing they miss is Arkle won that first Gold Cup by 5 lengths the same year that was used to mainly compare him and Flyingbolt. A year later Arkle had improved by so much he beat Mill House by 30 lengths.
Flyingbolt was a wonderful horse but as good as Arkle?……great advert for the stable at the time but that’s as far as it goes in my book
Fist , great stuff , all I can tell you is Arkle seemed to be sailing over fences as if they did not exist , and was always cantering ,even when he won those big handicaps
I was only a teenager when I saw him but the jumping ability he had was way superior to Kauto , and thats whats in the back of my mind
Still I love Kauto he is brilliant for the game and I hope he wins loads more
great post fist
Ricky
Forget re evaluating Arkle, Mr Smith should spend more time re evaluating his own deluded ratings. Kauto Star apparently found more than 21lbs improvement from Haydock to Kempton this year judged on Imperial Commander’s official rating. And he’s found a further 9lbs from the Gold Cup in March to Kempton. To think Mr Smith dropped him 4lbs before last year’s King George yet he’s now, for certain, a 20lb better horse. Does anyone believe that? I don’t think we’re all that mad.
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Thanks Ricky.
He most likely hasn’t improved since he ran in the King George 2 years ago Jose but Timeform’s job is never easy.
I have never rated Voy Por Ustedes very highly at all but Timeform did. So when Master Minded came along and stuffed him his rating when through the roof passing both Denman and Kauto Star.
MM had won only 2 good races beating the same horse and he was in Timeform’s veiw better than 2 horses who had won oodles of Group 1 races between them.
I think Kauto has earned his crown and is a much superior animal to the others but imrproved 20lbs?
If he had he would be at risk of being shot down by the RAF.
A "freak of nature" who was possibly only slightly better than a stablemate at the time?!
I’m not putting Arkle or Flyinbolt down but could they be two "freaks of nature"?
Colin
Maybe Peter O’Sullevan’s term "freak of nature" was a little extreme; a tad hyperbolic perhaps, yet the fact remains that Arkle and Flyingbolt were – certainly in comparison to other National Hunt horses of that era – out of the ordinary.
It just so happens that another so called "freak of nature " happened to be strutting his stuff on the flat in 1965, just as Arkle and Flyinbolt were sweeping all before them that year over obstacles: namely Sea-Bird II.
Sometimes such rare, "freakish" coincidences do occur.
A few years later – five in fact; two British trained flat horses, born in the same year, would start their racin careers and go on to sweep all before them in similarly imperious fashion; displaying ability and talent which, like those two national hunt equine greats before them, could also be deemed "freakish" in comparison to their unfortunate opponents. Another mere coincidence ( or fate ? ) that both Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef happened to be foaled in the same year.
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I have never rated Voy Por Ustedes very highly at all but Timeform did. So when Master Minded came along and stuffed him his rating when through the roof passing both Denman and Kauto Star.
Is there any chance at all of you sticking with the facts rather than making up a load of rubbish just because it suits your argument?
Timeform Chasers and Hurdlers Ratings for 2007/8 were
Kauto Star – 182
Denman – 180p
Master Minded 179Timeform have never rated Voy Por Ustedes as highly as the BHA or RPR, somewhat reluctantly awarding him 170 for his Melling Chase win that season having had him rated in the low 160’s prior to that.
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