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Easy error to make – how easily we pin labels “giant” and “under dog” on adversaries with all the preconceptions (many of which are misconceptions) attached to those labels.
There is a ruthlessness about the Ukraine defence of their country – a succession of Russian commanders clinically killed by tracking them via use of their own mobile phones.
And so many of the Russian troops seem to have little enthusiasm for the task at hand, cast as villains on the world stage, sent to invade a country they have no personal issue with which is mounting a lethal defence, and all this at the behest of a manifest madman.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Well it seems that some Russian troops are rather enthusiast
Hardened as we are by Russian atrocities, reports coming in from liberated towns around Kyiv document acts of horrifying, inhuman cruelty and evil, coaches of children used as human shields; corpses left on streets of civilians with hands tied behind back, many shot in head.
— Simon Schama (@simon_schama) April 2, 2022
We are at a crucial point now. This is likely to escalate. Clearly genocide is the intention and can the civilised world stand back ?
Richard and Ian, I have to agree that it hasn’t gone quite the way
I expected. A combination of ineffective Russian troops, including
many conscripts sent to the front line, and a terrific resistance
put up by the the Ukranian Army and many brave civilians.The news breaking is that the Ukranians have retaken Kyiv. That’s
according to the deputy defence minister. The new horror stories
coming in of civilian bodies lying in the street, some apparantly
cuffed behind and shot only add to the horrors which will be followed
up if or when this war halts.Difficult to assess all the information coming in aa helluva rate,
which was why I stressed more than once “(not verified)” re the videos
showing soldiers being shot in the legs.Again peace talks are mentioned, I would love to think they could bring
a halt to the killing, but I doubt they will. It’s clear what Zalensky
will do, everything in his power to defend Ukraine. It’s Putin that
has me even more worried now. If one set of options isn’t working,
it’s what he may consider next. It’s 80 odd years since we had someone
as dangerous to Global peace as Putin.In think you can safely assume that the Russian executions of civilians and the mass graves are verified
Its horrendous Clive. There’s no doubting about the mass graves, certainly not uncommon in war.
Some reports from residents, from the New York Times, state they were told by authorities to cover
over their dead family members, tie up their arms and legs and leave them outsisde, presumably for
collection. Before “someone” jumps down my throat, I’m not suggesting that is the case here.The I and the Telegraph report from the Mayor of Mariupol that it has been impossible to identify many
bodies and they don’t have the opportunity to bury them in private graves. A hospital in Bucha has been
digging mass graves for days now.I don’t like to assume Clive, just because it’s been drilled into me never to assume. They have a
mnemonic for it, never assume, it makes a ASS of U and ME. Nevertheless whatever the circumstances
it’s such a needless loss of life. The Russians shouldn’t be here in the 1st place.Have been reading this Thread and just feel that I want to say this having like all of us, been horrified at the things I have been seeing over the past weeks . ..the terrible sight of all those innocent civilians being slaughtered by men in tanks wearing body armour and fully armed. They are cowards controlled by the ‘Devil’ who hides underground in Moscow giving orders.
I saw the civilian who got out of his car with his hands in the air desperate to protect his wife and children but his pleas fell on deaf ears and he was murdered in front of his family and then they shot his wife. This is pure bloodlust on their part as if they are playing some kind of sick video game.
This act of cowardice was filmed from the air by a drone and well documented by Jeremy Bowen on BBC News, it is a vital piece of evidence on the road to getting Putin tried for War Crimes and the sooner this evil piece of sh!t is removed from power the better.
BigG is right the Russian soldiers are,in the main part, sadly acting under orders and probably under threat of harm to themselves and family if they do not carry them out. I don’t believe half of them knew what they were being sent into certainly not the apocalypse that’s happening now.
Killing civilians is a War Crime, there is a Law being ignored by the Russians saying they should be protected and all I can say about Putin and a Nuclear Bomb is that I hope he has dug himself a very deep bunker as Moscow is not far enough away from Kyiv for Moscow and its residents not to be affected by fallout.
JacThings turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Russian soldiers only “acting under orders”
Maybe with support for the invasion apparently running high I Russia along with polls indicating the majority want to attack Poland, we might have to admit that the country Is largely populated by scum?
My friend is writing: "My husband's friend, a doctor from Zaporizhzhia, says a group of girls from Mariupol was admitted to their hospital. The oldest one is 10 years old. They have recto-vaginal tears." https://t.co/3vA7wDqU1X
— Olga Rudenko (@olya_rudenko) April 2, 2022
That is disgusting clive and totally abhorrent and unacceptable, the sooner they all get their just deserts the better.
I have no sympathy for that kind of behaviour and from what I’m seeing on the news now it’s getting worse.
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...I read this interesting piece from “USN” so, I wouldn’t hold out for anybody being punished in the near future:
By Jacqueline Thomsen and Mike Scarcella
(Reuters) – Germany, France and other countries have accused Russia of war crimes in the town of Bucha just outside Ukraine’s capital Kyiv.
The mayor of Bucha said on Saturday that 300 residents had been killed by Russian troops during a month-long occupation. Victims were seen by Reuters in a mass grave and lying in the streets.
The Russian defence ministry in Moscow did not immediately reply to a request for comment when asked on Sunday about bodies found in Bucha.
Russia has previously denied targeting civilians and rejected allegations of war crimes in what it calls a “special military operation” in Ukraine.
Even before Bucha, Ukraine and its Western allies accused Russian forces of targeting civilians indiscriminately, citing the bombing in the southern port of Mariupol of a maternity hospital and a theater marked as sheltering children.
Legal experts said a prosecution of President Vladimir Putin or other Russian leaders would face high hurdles and could take years, as outlined below:
HOW IS A WAR CRIME DEFINED?
The International Criminal Court in The Hague defines war crimes as “grave breaches” of the post-World War Two Geneva Conventions, agreements which lay out the international humanitarian laws to be followed in war time. Breaches include deliberately targeting civilians and attacking legitimate military targets where civilian casualties would be “excessive,” legal experts said.
The USSR ratified the Geneva Convention in 1954. Russia in 2019 revoked its recognition of one of the protocols, but remains a signatory to the rest of the agreements.
HOW MIGHT A CASE PROCEED?
The International Criminal Court’s chief prosecutor, Karim Khan, said last month he had opened an investigation into possible war crimes in Ukraine.
Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a member of the ICC and Moscow does not recognize the tribunal. But Ukraine has given its approval to examine alleged atrocities on its territory dating back to Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014.
Russia may decide not to cooperate with the ICC and any trial would be delayed until a defendant is arrested.
WHAT IS THE STANDARD OF PROOF?
The ICC will issue an arrest warrant if prosecutors can show “reasonable grounds to believe” war crimes were committed. To obtain a conviction, the prosecutor would have to prove a defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, experts said.
For most charges, that requires proving intent. One way to do this would be for a prosecutor to show there were no military targets in the area of an attack and that it was not an accident.
“If it keeps happening again and again and the strategy appears to be to target civilians in urban areas, then that can be very powerful evidence of an intent to do so,” said Alex Whiting, a visiting professor at Harvard Law School.
WHO COULD BE CHARGED?
A war crimes investigation may focus on soldiers, commanders and heads of state, experts said.
A prosecutor could present evidence that Putin or another state leader committed a war crime by directly ordering an illegal attack or knew crimes were being committed and failed to prevent them.
WHAT MAKES A WAR CRIME CONVICTION DIFFICULT?
Legal experts said the bombings of the theater and maternity hospital in Mariupol appear to fall under the definition of war crimes. But securing a conviction can be difficult.
In addition to the challenges they face proving intent in many cases and linking leaders directly to specific attacks, prosecutors can have a tough time obtaining evidence from a war zone, including interviews with witnesses who might be intimidated or otherwise reluctant to speak.
In the case of Ukraine, ICC prosecutors will comb through publicly available video and photographic evidence.
Bringing defendants to trial can also be difficult. Moscow is almost certain to refuse to comply with arrest warrants. The ICC will have to track potential defendants to see whether they travel to countries where they can be arrested.
ARE THERE ANY PRECEDENTS?
Since the ICC was formed, it has overseen 30 cases, some with multiple defendants, its website says. ICC judges have convicted five people of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, and acquitted four others. Congolese warlord Thomas Lubanga Dyilo was convicted in 2012.
The court has issued arrest warrants for several defendants who remain at large, including Joseph Kony, leader of the Lord’s Resistance Army militia group in Uganda.
The United Nations in 1993 created the separate International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia to examine crimes that took place during the Balkan Wars, which issued 161 indictments and sentenced 90 individuals.
A year later, the United Nations set up the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda to judge those responsible for the genocide and other crimes committed there and in neighbouring states in 1994. It indicted 93 people and sentenced 62.
Legal experts have raised the possibility of creating a separate tribunal to examine potential war crimes in Ukraine, which could be done through the United Nations or a treaty.
Agreed..It makes you sick to the stomach what these people are having to go through..a man in tears tonight witnessing Russian soldiers shooting dogs. In fact al Ukrainians being treated worse than those poor dogs now.
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...It is surely beyond any reasonable doubt that some truly disgusting war crimes have been committed. Maybe more evidence/proof is required in the eyes of the law but in the eyes of us regular folk it’s pretty clear.
How the **** anyone can inflict those sorts of injuries on anyone is beyond me, never mind children of 10 and younger. It literally turns my stomach.
It’s just beyond belief Jac (Triptych) that people can sink this low, unbelieveable.
You’re also right that a lot of young men sent on a so called “mission” probably don’t
want to be there. Those that do step over the line, such as the systematic killing of
civilians and the alleged assault on children highlighted on the twitter feed by Clive,
there should be no hiding place for these animals.I’m aware of poll in the Washington Post indicating that the majority of Russian citizens,
65% support the invasion of Ukraine. The only information the majority will get they will be
getting fed whatever information they get from the Kremlin. There’s also the consideration
that people when asked may, understandably, be somewhat reluctant to give an opinion disagreeing
with their maniac leader. I wouldn’t yet write off a country of 144 Million from a survey of
1640 people just yet Clive.I can’t say I’m aware of a poll showing the majority of Russians wanting to invade Poland,
I would be sceptical of the source for that information, although I am aware that many
Polish people fear this and that a poll in Poland showed that 65% of Poles were ready for
their country to defend the Ukraine.You’re right Clive, it is too much to digest at this time. Trying to work out what
information is coming from where, and also the possible the reasons behind the
information. So much is yet to be known about this war, and none of it will be good.I am trying to think of a time in my life when media news images have shocked and saddened me as much as though coming out of Ukraine.
I have little doubt that what Ukraine are telling us is largely true.
I honestly believe that had this happened 50 years ago the West would now be descending on Russia like avenging angels screaming for moral vengeance and, for better or for apocalyptic worse, we would be embarking on WWIII.
And I wouldn’t entirely rule out the same thing happening in 2022.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Bigg. You don’t want to read what Russian media is promoting.
The quotes in this thread promote genocide. Nothing more. Nothing less
The source is a bbc reporter
An op-ed for state news agency RIA Novosti titled "What Russia should do with Ukraine" by pundit Timofei Sergeitsev has created quite a stir today
The rhetoric is truly horrific, even by the standards of what I'm used to seeing from pro-Kremlin media
Below are a few quotes:
— Francis Scarr (@francska1) April 4, 2022
And thank god we don’t have this complete **** as pm.
I don’t mean Hodges
I’m not going to link the pics but young children were clearly tied up and executed too
And yet there are plenty on the far left and their fellow travelers and soulmates nationalistic right claiming it was staged. Despite endless witness statements. I despise these people
Still can't do it. Still can't condemn Russia or Putin directly. https://t.co/kj8vz7UH7k
— (((Dan Hodges))) (@DPJHodges) April 4, 2022
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