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“For “no-fly zone” read WWIII, Ian.”
Even the penguins at the South Pole know that, GT.
I never said I wanted one.
Have a day off.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I don’t want a penguin either.
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highwaysI wasn’t bothered about your first sentance at all Ginge, the one you’ve just
highlighted, “I wouldn’t say you’re pro Putin at all, BigG.” it was the 2nd one,
which you didn’t highlight, “Just more inclined than most TRFers to believe Putin’s
propaganda and / or rhetoric.”You were trying to “speak up for me” Ginge, jeez, I wouldn’t like to see if you had it
in for me. What if I’d said to you that you were “more inclined than most TRFers to
believe Putin’s Propeganda and / or rhetoric” when there isn’t even a sniff of that,
don’t you think you would be a wee bit miffed
As for the the address to and about Boris, I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t
understand it.
————————————————————————————
Ginge –
“I fear that his cry for help will fall on deaf ears”.“fall on deaf ears” means it will be ignored.
If you “fear” Zalensky’s cry for help will be ignored then you’re implying his cry for help
should have a different reaction from Boris than what it has. I was confused by that sentence
Which was why I asked the question “what do you want Boris to do”? Fair enough, you’ve now
answered and I will now ignore the “fall on deaf ears” sentence.”
———————————————————————————-No need to ignore the “fall on deaf ears” Ginge, that’s exactly what I mean because
that’s exactly what Boris and the West will do. They will not respond in the way
that Zalensky wants, because they have no option. Which is why I said “It’ a
horrible situation, we’ve got 2 bad options. We do nothing, other than sanctions,
which the Russians will manage with for the time they are likely to need to take
control, or we help and increase the chances of escalating this way beyond a war
between Russia and Ukraine. I fear that his cry for help will fall on deaf ears.”To be honest I don’t think I could have been any clearer. “It’s horrible to see,
but they are on their own. God help them.”I never left Ginge.
““For “no-fly zone” read WWIII, Ian.”
Even the penguins at the South Pole know that, GT.
I never said I wanted one.
Have a day off”.
——————————–
Of course you know that and I never said you did want one, Ian.
Please look at my whole post.My point was only that it is obviously in Zalensky’s / Ukraine’s interests to start WWIII by bringing NATO in to the war. Therefore, by Zalensky pulling at the heartstrings of the World’s public by saying “give Ukraine a no-fly zone” we should also see it as HIM saying “give Ukraine WWIII”.
Zalensky is a clever man. Had Zalensky said “give Ukraine WWIII” the World’s public would not be so inclined to put pressure on their governments for it.
Value Is Everything“No need to ignore the “fall on deaf ears” Ginge, that’s exactly what I mean because
that’s exactly what Boris and the West will do. They will not respond in the way
that Zalensky wants, because they have no option”.—————————————-
Yes, but it is the word “fear” added to the falls on deaf ears that makes the difference to what you wrote.
When saying “fear it will fall on deaf ears” it means you do NOT want it to fall on deaf ears. Made it sound as if you wanted Boris and the West to act on Zelensky’s words.
…But that is not what you meant so fair enough.
We all write things that are sometimes not what we mean or not what others take us as meaning.
Value Is Everything“Yes, but it is the word “fear” added to the falls on deaf ears that makes the difference to what you wrote.
When saying “fear it will fall on deaf ears” it means you do NOT want it to fall on deaf ears. Made it sound as if you wanted Boris and the West to act on Zelensky’s words.
…But that is not what you meant so fair enough.
We all write things that are sometimes not what we mean or not what others take us as meaning”.———————————————————————————————————
Fair enough Ginge, I thought saying that “I fear HIS cry for help will fall on deaf ears”
would have made it abundantly clear.I think we’ve been round the houses with this one long enough Ginge, I’m happy to call
a truce and just put it to bed. Hopefully we might get better news for the Ukraine than
seems likely at the moment. They certainly seem, at least by some of the information that’s
coming out, to be putting up a valiant fight.Drone pointed out that the weather was dipping to temperatures not normal at this time of
year, it must be desperate out there.“I wouldn’t say you’re pro Putin at all, BigG.
Just more inclined than most TRFers to believe Putin’s propaganda and / or rhetoric.”Give me 1 example Ginger
——————————–
Ok but remember you did ask.
And it’s not really one example BigG, many had some of the same opinions as you, but yours do seem to add up. More the whole picture than one example:You believed Russia would not invade Ukraine – because Putin said so.
“Putin is absolutely loving this, he’s got Biden and the western world dancing on a string.
I don’t think Putin had or has any intention of going into Ukraine, he’s just making enough
of a mark to let the west be frightened enough to not allow the Ukraine into NATO, and I
think he’s achieved it. I think the Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO now are very slim.
If I’m proved wrong, I’ll hold my hands up, but I’ve always been of the opinion that this
is just one big frightener by someone, despicable or otherwise, who’s an expert at playing the
game”.Then you seemed to believe the two regions of Donbas and Luhansk were legitimate targets for Russia – because Putin said so. Putin would stop at Donbas and leave the rest of Ukraine – because Putin said so.
“He won’t invade Ukraine, unless you want to call these 2 areas Ukraine, which is anything but clear.
Donbas People’s Militia was formed by Pavel Gubarev, who was elected as
People’s Governor of Donetsk Oblast. The Militia has been under attack from
the Ukraine for years, with little effect. They have captured countless military
weapons and vehicles from the Ukraine.
The Donetsk People’s Republic and the Luhansk People’s Republic joined forces.
They were widely believed to be responsible for the downing of civilian airliner,
Malasia Airlines flight 17 in 2014.
It is suspected that these factions are being supported by Russia, which Russia
deny, which makes the whole thing even murkier. The Ukraine Government haven’t
had a foothold in these areas in years, and on each offensive they have been
beaten back and lost men and substantial weaponry.
Russia Haven’t invaded Ukraine (yet) but they are much nearer if they so choose”
.
You believe that Putin’s reason for invasion is because of NATO – because Putin said so.
“I think it’s a harsh reminder to the west that he won’t sit on the sidelines whilst NATO bring Ukraine under their umbrella”.You believed the invasion would be over “in days”.
“This will be over in days. Zelenskyy doesn’t seem prepared and
I’d expect his troops to desert with the russian advance”,You believed (at least initially) that economic sanctions would not hurt Russia much and that sanctions are just for show.
“The actions taken by the west are because they have to be seen to be doing something and sounding strong for their own people (voters) It won’t even divert Putin and the west know it”.Week ago you believed Russia was in control of most of Ukraine, yet it still goes on.
March 4th: “even with guerilla tactics you are never going to remove the Russians now thT they all but have control of Ukraine”.You do not believe the West / NATO would or would be able to supply weapons to Ukrainian guerrillas despite the West already supplying Ukrainian forces with anti-tank and surface to air weaponry.
“I don’t see the west arming guerilla groups. They did next to nothing for the Ukrainians except having standing ovations as if thT made them on the same side. They left them to have their country stolen by Russia. Yes they were nice gestures but nice gestures didn’t help the Ukrainians one bit. They would bottle out to arm Ukranian guerillas/freedom fighters if The Ukraine were in Russian hands.You believe Finland and Sweden would be safer out of NATO despite Russia already invading a non-NATO country… Trouble is to believe that you must first believe what Putin says.
“Ginge, if Nato have control of Finland on Russia’s west flank, I dread to say it but
if we aren’t in a bad enough position at the moment, I think we are talking World
War. If Putin was fussed about Ukraine, he is never going to accept that Nato have
a foothold in Finland”.…All perfectly reasonable opinions BigG, but it’s why imo you are more inclined than most TRFers to believe Putin propaganda or at least his rhetoric. That does not mean you believe all Putin’s rhetoric or even half… And of course you are like the rest of us hoping Ukraine win… Just that you are imo more inclined than most TRFers to believe the propaganda; or if not propaganda then at least the rhetoric of Putin.
Value Is EverythingOk, I’ll trail through this pile of sh+t tomorrow Ginge, all I’ll say at this point
is that having an opinion isn’t because “Putin said so” I’m not sure how mant times
you’ve said that, but you’re wrong on every count. I didn’t ever say once that I
believed anything because “Putin said so”. I’m sorry Ginge but I have to say this,
you’re a downright liar. I thought we had finished this, but because you got a bit
of a showing up, just trying to mix it, which is your thing, you’ve got to try and
concoct or missrepresent what has been said to try and, well, I don’t know, win?I’ll go through this tomorrow Ginge, to interested in the wheelchair curling at the
moment. Why don’t you ever think of doing something positive Can anyone see an acceptable way out of this?
If what is being reported is true ( propaganda is everywhere) Putin is provoking western powers into an all out war, which from experience we know there are no winners.
Does he have a Hitler complex?
“Putin is provoking western powers into an all out war, which from experience we know there are no winners.”
Or perhaps it should be: “China is provoking Russia and the western powers into an all out war, with China being the winner.”
I need this like a hole in the head.
Ginge
You believed Russia would not invade Ukraine – because Putin said so.
“Putin is absolutely loving this, he’s got Biden and the western world dancing on a string.
I don’t think Putin had or has any intention of going into Ukraine, he’s just making enough
of a mark to let the west be frightened enough to not allow the Ukraine into NATO, and I
think he’s achieved it. I think the Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO now are very slim.
If I’m proved wrong, I’ll hold my hands up, but I’ve always been of the opinion that this
is just one big frightener by someone, despicable or otherwise, who’s an expert at playing the
game”.
————————————————————————————————
Me
Where did I say that I believed Russia would not invade Ukraine because “Putin said so”
I believed Russia wouldn’t invade Ukraine because I believed that Putin’s “goal” was to
stop the Ukraine joining Nato and that By intimidating Ukraine with the threat of power
that Zalenski would draw back from trying to join NATO. Zalenski chose not to do that and
Putin invaded. At no Time did I say I believed Putin would not invade “because he said so”As for Putin having Biden and the western world dancing on a string, he’s invaded Ukraine
and the West stand back powerless to stop him. Will sanctions hurt, yes. Do you think he
cares, will it stop him invading Ukraine? No.You mention that I said Putin is an expert at playing the game. He’s been head of the KGB and
in the military his whole adult like. He’s trained for this, He knows more about “playing the game”
than Boris and Biden put together. I despise the guy, but that’s a fact.
————————————————————————————————
Ginge
Then you seemed to believe the two regions of Donbas and Luhansk were legitimate targets for Russia –
because Putin said so. Putin would stop at Donbas and leave the rest of Ukraine – because Putin said so.
“He won’t invade Ukraine, unless you want to call these 2 areas Ukraine, which is anything but clear.
—————————————————————————————————-
Me
I didn’t ever say or suggest Donbas and Luhansk were legitimate targets for Russia, and to my
recollection Putin didn’t say it either. What I did say was that the areas of Dondas and Luhansk
had been fighting with the Ukraine for years, seeing themselves as independent states. They have
been receiving help, alledgedly, from Russia during their conflict with the Ukraine. I see you
conveniently left out my comment on the same thread “Russia Haven’t invaded Ukraine (yet) but they
are much nearer if they so choose.”
————————————————————————————————Ginge
You believed the invasion would be over “in days”.
“This will be over in days. Zelenskyy doesn’t seem prepared and
I’d expect his troops to desert with the russian advance”,You believed (at least initially) that economic sanctions would not hurt Russia much and that sanctions are just for show.
“The actions taken by the west are because they have to be seen to be doing something and sounding strong for their own people (voters) It won’t even divert Putin and the west know it”.Week ago you believed Russia was in control of most of Ukraine, yet it still goes on.
March 4th: “even with guerilla tactics you are never going to remove the Russians now thT they all but have control of Ukraine”.
—————————————————————————————————-
Me
If Russia had chosen to go down that path, they could have flattened the Ukraine without having
to put troops on the streets, simply by missiles, but they don’t want to destroy a country, they
want to occupy it. Yes I did think this would be over in days, It’s been a couple of weeks now,
what’s the book on when the Ukraine are under Russian control? How long until Ukraine falls?
Zelenski will get no military help from the West, how long do you think they can hold out.
No, Zalenski wasn’t prepared, he was offering out guns to just about anyone who could hold one.
Does that sound like a plan?Sanctions are the only show open to the West, why do you think the German’s didn’t turn off the Gas?
because it will hurt them, Just a week ago Boris was put under pressure as to why he has delayed
a crackdown on “Russian Dirty Money in London” for 18 months, Couldn’t be the fact that the tories
fat wedge may take a bit of a hit could it.Yes, Russia IS in control of most of Ukraine. It’s straight out the handbook, they’ve taken most of
the ports, certainly the importand ones, and they are taking the Ukrainians out city by city.Have I missed a “because Putin said so in this one”? Oh yes. Ginge – “You believe that Putin’s reason for invasion is because of NATO – because Putin said so.” I believe that Putin thinks it is a threat
to Russia if Ukraine become a member of NATO, and he wants Ukraine under Russian control. Did I
really have to get told that by Putin to realise that’s what he wanted?———————————————————————————————–
GingeYou do not believe the West / NATO would or would be able to supply weapons to Ukrainian guerrillas despite the West already supplying Ukrainian forces with anti-tank and surface to air weaponry.
“I don’t see the west arming guerilla groups. They did next to nothing for the Ukrainians except having standing ovations as if that made them on the same side. They left them to have their country stolen by Russia. Yes they were nice gestures but nice gestures didn’t help the Ukrainians one bit. They would bottle out to arm Ukranian guerillas/freedom fighters if The Ukraine were in Russian hands.
——————————————————————————————–
Me
If you think the west will be supplying weapons to Ukraine guerillas once it’s under Russian
Occupation, that’s your prerogative. I think the West won’t get their hands dirty. I don’t think
I heard Putin mention that one
——————————————————————————————-
Finaly Ginge (if only)You believe Finland and Sweden would be safer out of NATO despite Russia already invading a non-NATO country… Trouble is to believe that you must first believe what Putin says.
“Ginge, if Nato have control of Finland on Russia’s west flank, I dread to say it but
if we aren’t in a bad enough position at the moment, I think we are talking World
War. If Putin was fussed about Ukraine, he is never going to accept that Nato have
a foothold in Finland”.
——————————————————————————————-
Me
The Swedish Prime Minister said 2 days ago that joining NATO would destabilise the security
of Northern Europe and said that they decline to enter any talks. The Presdent of Finland
has agreed to discussions between party leaders. Don’t hold your breath.So, “Just more inclined than most TRFers to believe Putin’s propaganda and / or rhetoric.”
I asked for 1 example and I’m still waiting. You can’t just say when a comment is made
that it’s because Putin said so, when not 1 comment have I made was “because “Putin said so”
I stand by every comment I’ve made, they were my own and to be honest I think you probably
know that but you decided to try to make a case. Let me tell you Ginge, this one would get
thrown out of court.You’re a negative force on here Ginge, I know you have your problems, don’t we all, you’ve
been vocal about them in the past, but that doesn’t allow you to make up stories just because
you want to be seen as right. By any chance did you possibly count how many times I called
Putin “a despicable man who was a threat to world peace”, I would imagine not, that wouldn’t
quite fit into your selected scenario but I guarantee it was at least as many times as any
man, or woman, in here.I suggested on my last post that we just put this one to bed and get on with things, but
you just can’t help yourself, you had to have another go. Have you’re last crack if you will,
or as you always do, I won’t be taking the bite, I’ve got more important things to be getting
on with in the various forums I’m quite heavily involved in. Maybe you should get out of here
from time to time, it’s not as dark out there. I wish you well Ginge, but the last thing I need
in my life at this time is negativity. I won’t be responding.“Ok, I’ll trail through this pile of sh+t tomorrow Ginge, all I’ll say at this point
is that having an opinion isn’t because “Putin said so” I’m not sure how mant times
you’ve said that, but you’re wrong on every count. I didn’t ever say once that I
believed anything because “Putin said so”. I’m sorry Ginge but I have to say this,
you’re a downright liar. I thought we had finished this, but because you got a bit
of a showing up, just trying to mix it, which is your thing, you’ve got to try and
concoct or missrepresent what has been said to try and, well, I don’t know, win”?I’ll go through this tomorrow Ginge, to interested in the wheelchair curling at the
moment. Why don’t you ever think of doing something positive ————————————
Oh BigG.
A couple of definitions:Propaganda – “information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view”.
Rhetoric – “language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect, but which is often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.
You’re NOT believing Putin because you want to believe Putin, BigG.
That’s not what I said at all.
We are all susceptible to propaganda and rhetoric.
We don’t always realise the actual reason why we believe something.
Propaganda and rhetoric (of Putin or anyone) is all about the SUB-CONSCIOUS mind of those the person / country wants to influence.You might think I believe (have fallen for) more of the West’s propaganda / rhetoric than most TRFers, that’s a viewpoint I would disagree with but as it’s the sub-conscious mind you could be right.
You imo just believe (your sub-conscious mind has fallen for) Putin’s propaganda and / or rhetoric more than most TRFers. That’s all, there is nothing personal in what I’ve said, BigG.
Value Is EverythingIn such uncertain times – and there’s little else more uncertain than the progress of a war – quoting what folk have written a few weeks ago, or even a few days ago is unfair and rather churlish IMVHO
My opinion on this appalling shitshow wavers, changes, goes around-and-around almost by the hour and I would not appreciate anyone pulling me up with an ‘ah but you wrote back…whenever’ as though what was written then is sacrosanct and cast in concrete
Don’t give me that.
I did not want to give any examples / quotes.
I was asked more than once by you yourself BigG, to:“Give me 1 example Ginger”
…And when I did not respond the first time with any example / quote you even goaded me by saying “Not a dickie”.
ie You were asking me twice (demanding) me to provide at least one quote of yours to explain why I said that you were / are:
“Just more inclined than most TRFers to believe Putin’s propaganda and / or rhetoric.”Trouble with giving just one quote is it would not have explained.
ie Being QUOTE “more inclined than most TRFers” END QUOTE actually means the frequency goes a big way to why I said it. So in responding to your demand of giving 1 example – and to illustrate why I said what I said – I had to give more examples / quotes.
Sorry if my one sentence offends you, but it is no big(G) deal. Fact is many are taken in by propaganda / rhetoric from both sides and it is only my opinion that you were / are taken in. Does not mean I think you are in any way a bad person.
Value Is EverythingBack to what actually matters…
“Can anyone see an acceptable way out of this”?
Good question Colin.
I’d suggest all sides, Russia, Ukraine, The West, NATO, Finland and Sweden agree to all the following:
Russia gets out of Ukraine.
Both Russia and Ukraine agree to free referendums held by the UN in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk.
Or breaks them up for the purposes of this referendum into smaller regions. For Russia and Ukraine to negotiate what these smaller regions are (each region having a border with both Russia and Ukraine so as not to isolate any region)…
The referendum to ask:
Do you want to be part of Russia or Ukraine?
Russia and Ukraine and the West agree the people of each region get whatever each region’s majority want.Ukraine to be allowed to be IN NATO but NOT to have NATO troops inside Ukraine.
This would mean Ukraine would have the safeguard of if it happened again NATO would react militarily to force Russia out…
While Russia has the safeguard of what they (allegedly) want of NO NATO forces on its Ukraine border provided Russia keeps to their borders.If Finland and / or Sweden ever wants to join NATO the above paragraph could also be agreed with Russia. Again giving the same safeguards to both Finland, Sweden and Russia.
Possible no military zone for X miles into Russian territory all along its border. And the same on The West side. To be negotiated. This should also help Putin’s (alleged) fear of attack from NATO and Ukraine / The West’s fear of further attacks by Russia (Putin).
Ukraine to be a member of the EU if wanting it.
Reparations made to Ukraine by Russia,
Could that work?
Value Is Everything
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