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It appears that Kyiv is besieged:
Vitali Klitschko, Kyiv’s mayor and former world heavyweight boxing champion, has described the Ukraine capital as “encircled” and said a civilian evacuation would not be possible “because all ways are blocked”.
“We are at the border of a humanitarian catastrophe,” he told Associated Press on Sunday as a curfew continued in the city which he said allowed authorities to hunt “saboteurs” on the streets. “Right now, we have electricity, right now we have water and heating in our houses. But the infrastructure is destroyed to deliver the food and medication.”So, whilst it goes without saying that the residents of the city could be in for a tough, tough time could we also spare a thought for the western journalists stuck there too: there by choice maybe, but brave nonetheless
Doucet, Myrie et al, thanks
21:41. On the ticker, from the Russians why do we need a world if Russia’s not in it?
Personally I’d love British (NATO) troops to go into Ukraine, if it was not for the probability of it resulting in World War III, BigG… Therefore unfortunately have to be against British troops being involved.
However, if any individual British person wanted to go over and fight for Ukraine it would not cause a World War and yes they’d be fighting for “democracy”. So if they want to I don’t see why they should be discouraged.
So don’t see what the feck you have against what Lizz Truss said.
Value Is EverythingWell, her own department’s website tells you that it’s potentially illegal so there is that…
‘If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK.’
“May” not “will” Richard.
May be how that terrorist law is worded is technically possible.
But in reality can’t imagine anyone being prosecuted for fighting for Ukraine and even if they were no British jury would find him / her guilty.Value Is EverythingAgain, the same thing happened with Spain.
Technically any British national who fought in the International Brigades was in breach of the Foreign Enlistment Act. In practice, the government decided it was not practical to prevent anyone from joining up or to prosecute anyone on their return.
No one has been prosecuted under the Act since the late nineteenth century and any threat to do so is an empty one.
I know what ‘may’ and ‘will’ mean. Advising people that it’s fine to do something that may be illegal seems odd, however remote the chance of prosecution may be. If there’s zero chance, update the website to say that.
My boyhood favourite football club Chelsea’s assets should be seized.
Value Is EverythingWhy is FIFA, allowing the Russian football team to play in the upcoming Euro World Cup playoffs, against strong protests from many nations? Good on you Poland and Sweden for your refusal to play if Russia participates!
Is this just another devil’s advocate reply Ginge, or do you really think that
as Foreign Secretary Liz Trust should be advocating untrained men and women
should be encouraged (“it’s a battle for democracy”) to head for a warzone
to in all likelyhood to be killed, should they be involved in a battle.Yes some men went to Spain, but that was an internal Spanish battle. This is Russia
against an army bolstered by untrained civilians and possibly foreign untrained
civilians. Would you want you son or daughter to go there ? and don’t say if
that’s their choice, that’s not the question.If this is simply resolved by military force, and not dialogue between the sides,
there is only one winner and like it or not it is the hugely bigger army with
massively more sophisticated war machinery. A Government official, when they
won’t send their own troops in, (and we’ve both agree that would be a disaster)
shouldn’t be encouraging civilians to head to a warzone where they have no idea
of the terrain and in all likelihood no idea how to handle a weapon. It’s nothing
but a recipe for disaster. Yes a lot of committed people went to Spain, and I can
understand that, but it was a completely different type of war.God knows I want the Ukraine to win here, by my opininion is that they unless this
is settled by deplomacy, they have absolutely no chance.When we both posted at roughly the same time re the Pakistan deal traded by Imran
Khan, and I was scathing of him, when I saw you had written that you could understand
the Pakistan position, I though oh sh+t, here comes a 32 pager. Perhaps you just waited
for your moment
“But in reality can’t imagine anyone being prosecuted for fighting for Ukraine and even if they were no British jury would find him / her guilty”.
Nor me, but I can certainly imagine the Border Agency refusing them entry when they try to come back.
I reckon Putin has overplayed his hand here. Russian people know better than most what war means for civilians, which is why they’re taking to the streets and I imagine the impacts of economic & financial sanctions (especially SWIFT – Putin is apparently a technophobe) were unexpected. The country is now totally isolated and all the work of the past 30 years to build international networks trashed. Many won’t be happy about that, nor Putin’s nuclear threats. Russia has a proud tradition of dealing ruthlessly with leaders once they become liabilities and that is my hope. Of course that could create a vacuum leading to God knows what and somebody just as bad but that’s politics for you.
And yes, Turkoman, FIFA is a disgrace. If Poland & Sweden refuse to play & Russia (or whatever it’s masquerading as) gets through, all teams should boycott the competition altogether (which, arguably, should be the case anyway given the loss of life during the preparation for this tournament).
Drone:
I’m not sure whether you’re aware, but that report by AP about the mayor’s comments, specifically the use of “encircled” to describe Kyiv’s situation, was later retracted by the mayor who said on his Telegram channel:
“In the evening, Russian internet publications spread information with reference to me that Kyiv is allegedly surrounded and evacuation of people is impossible. … Do not believe lies! Trust information only from official sources.”During times like these, the propaganda machine is firing on all cylinders….on all sides!
I distrust a lot of information at these times too Turkoman, but why would the Associated Press,
an American news agency, report something which would be to the benefit of Putin, when the Americans
are against Putin. It doesn’t fit quite right. I’m not disputing, or agreeing, that the Mayor retracted
his comments, but it’s more likely he was advised to do so.I agree with you Tonge, whether there is a law or not, nobody is going to be prosecuted when
they come back, assuming they do, with the Defence Secretary making it clear it’s up to them.
She would be the 1st defence witness in court.She may be in the dock BigG. Many of them are complicit.
I am keeping an open mind on all reports. I know that there is bombing & fighting, there are many casualties and people desperate to flee the country. Live broadcasts from reputable news sources are probably OK. As for the details (including the heartwarming stories of heroism, which we all want to believe despite the fact that some seemed to come through almost before a shot was fired), I regard with some suspicion. Likewise any supposed insight into Putin’s mind or that of his inner circle. Any old Ukrainian has now been issued with an automatic weapon. Imagine if that happened here and who would have one (another argument to bar UK subjects from travelling). There will be loads of domestic atrocities but I doubt we’ll hear about any of them.It’s always the same Tonge, Information/Disinforrmation, take your pick. We should
not send civilians over there, and as for giving anyone this side of death a gun,
they are more likely to shoot themselves in the foot or with inadquate training,
killed by friendly fire would be bound to happen. Their intentions are good, I can
understand standing up for your country against much bigger forces, I’m Scottish
after all, but they are putting people in as, and I hate to say it, but not much
more than cannon fodder if they don’t know one end of a gun from the other.Thanks Turkoman, I did see that later retraction, or correction. Sincerely hope that the mayor is right
“the first casualty of war is truth”
So I’m relieved that at least I prefaced the quote with “apparently”
It just stirred up thoughts of the dreadful Siege of Leningrad; thoughts wholly negative admittedly
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