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That’s spot on drone, and I would add that we have to be somewhat sceptical about
any “good news” from Ukraine and the west. It doesn’t mean it’s all false, but it’s
the first step used against whoever is seen as the bad guy, and Putin is the bad guy.
Propaganda goes into overdrive.Gladiateur, wholeheartedly agree, those 13 making the ultimate sacrifice shows incredible
courage knowing the inevitable outcome. True heroes.Given your predictions (lol..) and earlier fawning views on putin I would suggest that Ukrainians would send pretty much the same message to you as the Russians bigg
That doesn’t even make sense Clive. Could you point me in the directione of my “fawning Views”
on Putin. How many times do I have to say, as I have done, that Putin is a despicable man. I
can copy those statements from previous posts if you like. Not only is your statement, or the
half I could understand, untrue, it’s rather pathetic that you’re trying to create another spat
on here for no reason.I don’t care if this ends In a ban
I have not seen on twitter or anywhere else from any side such comments. From no one
Zero respect for the Ukrainians
To those who
“Mustn’t encourage the little simple Ukrainians. They don’t know what they are doing”
Go
****
Yourselves
“The Ukrainians are not waiting to see if the Empire State Building is lit up before fighting.
Totally patronising drivel.”
I agree with that Clive and the same applies to Bryant’s silly idea as well.
In their own small way, these silly sort of incidents sum up what has happened to the West. Obsessed with empty gestures and identity politics.
But the fact of the matter is, Ukraine is alone. It is not going to get any help from America or the rest of Europe. Just as Hungary did not in 1956, nor Czechoslovakia in 1968.
It is only a matter of time before the Russian Army achieves its short term military targets. Whether or not it can hold onto a country that is bigger than France in the long term is another matter altogether.
Clive, In the same post you appear to have some problem wth, did you miss that I
said “Gladiateur, wholeheartedly agree, those 13 making the ultimate sacrifice shows
incredible courage knowing the inevitable outcome. True heroes.”Even the BBC, that bastion of truth, had to point out that many of the photos
that are appearing on social media etc, planes and helecopters being shot down
and war scenes, were taken from other conflicts. This is what happens Clive.
Missinformation is used by EVERY side.You are entitled to your opinion, I’m certainly not calling for you to be banned
from here. I’ve seen more damaged and dismembered bodies than you Clive, so I
know what I’m talking about. Can’t we just agree that we are on the side of the
Ukraine forces and men standing in to hold the line against overwhelming forces.
That’s all that’s important.Can I ask that we let these spats go as water under the bridge. We actually want
the same thing (bar the torture and beheading bit).Cork, I would expect you to agree with Clive, and I have no idea who
Bryant is. Other than that, I totally agree with you. It’s all rhetoric
and cudgel waving by the west to cover there asses. Unfortunately that
was always going to be the way of it. They have too many things they
don’t want disrupted, and as I said many pages back, they don’t want
to get their feet dirty getting involved. That was always going to be
the way of it.“Cork, I would expect you to agree with Clive”.
I agree with Clive on that specific point, not on some of the other points he has made.
I think we need to realise that when the most powerful country in Europe closes down all its nuclear power stations because its Green voters do not like them and as a consequence becomes overwhelmingly reliant on Russian gas, it is not exactly going to go out of its way to anger the country that keeps it functioning.
I agree Cork, we have pushed ourselves into a corner. With the type
of man Putin is, this could have been foreseen.CAS:
“I think we need to realise that when the most powerful country in Europe closes down all its nuclear power stations because its Green voters do not like them and as a consequence becomes overwhelmingly reliant on Russian gas, it is not exactly going to go out of its way to anger the country that keeps it functioning.”
THIS!
BigG:
“…Unfortunately that was always going to be the way of it. They have too many things they
don’t want disrupted, and as I said many pages back, they don’t want
to get their feet dirty getting involved. That was always going to be
the way of it.”Good thinking.
I would argue that “this way of it” could have been avoided had NATO invited Ukraine to join in 1997 similar to Czech Republic, Hungry, and Poland which they acceded to NATO in 1999. Why didn’t NATO take that opportunity? Did Ukraine not meet their interests? It’s very unlikely that Russia would have done anything to prevent this from happing given its own internal social, political and economic turmoil at that time. Their economy was sinking, they defaulted on their debt, no real political leadership, the oligarchs were grabbing former state-owned enterprises and becoming billionaires overnight, rampant corruption, and Russian people could not yet adjust to democratic/capitalist way of life as Soviet Russia was still being seen very clearly in the rearview mirror. That was not the time to be concerned about NATO’s ambitions.
Fast forward 5 years to 2004. Putin is in Power. Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania Accede to NATO. Again, Ukraine was left out. Why? But, something is odd here. Putin didn’t invade either of these countries before they joined NATO. Why? After all, they’re right next door to Russia just like Ukraine is. What is going on here? The mainstream media is feeding us this “NATO story” every minute of the day. But, it’s not about NATO. It’s more to do with pure economics than any NATO issue. There could be other issues in the background, but Ukraine joining NATO is not one of them. Putin doesn’t care. I believe what he really cares about is ensuring that his oil and gas flows uninterrupted to Western Europe. This is what Angela Merkel wanted most: security of supply. You may recall that following the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and subsequent conflicts in Eastern Ukraine that Ukraine, on several occasions, threatened to cut-off Russian gas from passing through their pipeline system even though they receive a hefty fee for this service. Putin didn’t like. But, Angela Merkel and Germany were extremely concerned. Hence, the dispatching of Gerhard Schroder (the former German chancellor) to Rosneft to serve as its chairman (of course with Putin approval). I don’t believe Schroder was sent there because of his business acumen. That’s my take. It’s not about NATO. If it was, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania would have had never become members. Zero chance!
Turko whats to stop the Ukranians blowing said gas pipelines up , if I was in there shoes I’m pretty sure that would be high up my threat list ….
I wonder if Frere D’armes will finish in front of Russian Ruler in the 3:00 at Kempton
Good question, HDLG. Scorched earth policy? Well, in Ukraine’s case their pipeline infrastructure is the lifeblood of their economy as collect large fees from `Russia. It’s no secret that Ukraine was against the Nord pipeline from the beginning since it would compete with their own and hence less transfer fees. Notice one thing though, during this invasion are there any reports of extensive damage by the Russian’s to Ukraine’s pipeline facilities? It would be in Russia’s interest, a priority, to cripple Ukraine’s economy early on, don’t you think?
Russia is trying to suggest the reason why the Russian advance slowed is because it stopped to give peace talks a chance. LOL
Value Is EverythingClive is right.
We should encourage Ukrainians to fight.
…And yes, the more Russian soldiers die the better.
Because the more Russian soldiers die the more chance Russian public opinion has a chance of turning against Putin and (albeit a slight) chance of toppling Putin.Ditto sanctions.
The harder sanctions are the more chance of them working.Value Is Everything
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