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Sanctuaire has been given a Raceform time figure of 125 which is absolutely huge, 20 lengths faster than the Arkle where SS got his best so far of 115. I cannot remember any novice chaser getting that high a rating before! Most champion chasers never run that fast…
Above quote from another forum
Timeform rated Saturday’s performance at 169+ – the same as they gave Sprinter Sacre for his Arkle win.
SS is evens for the QM
Sanctuaire is 12s
As the Yanks say, you do the math
I thought the craziest thing Timeform ever did was give Dream Ahead the same rating as Dream Ahead/ They have outdone themselves.
You should never ever ever take a race like that at face value. Timeform do because they have no choice but ask anyone at Timeform to put money down on the PN horse to beat him they’d run a mile.
Quite frankly, I think Sprinter would give him a stone and still beat him no matter what mark they wont to give him.
id like to know where steeplechasing has got his information?I READ THE POST AND WEEKENDER AND THERE HAS BEEN NO REFERANCE TO TIMEFORMS CLAIM ABOUT A 20 LENGTH SUPERIORITY PERFORMANCE FROM SANTUAIRE OVER SPRINTER SACRES ARKLE ROMP.on the contrary the racing journalists from these papers have pretty much dismissed sandowns performance so as you can see theres contasting opinions from both sides.IV NEVER PERSONALLY HEARD AS MUCH RUBBISH IN MY LIFE AND SUCH A QUOTE IS TOTALLY BIASED
If you read my post again you’ll find that I made no reference to Timeform saying the horse was 20 lengths better which is probably why you can’t find it elsewhere.
If you go a bit easier on the caps lock key it might help you concentrate long enough to take in what people actually write
I thought the craziest thing Timeform ever did was give Dream Ahead the same rating as Dream Ahead/ They have outdone themselves.
You should never ever ever take a race like that at face value. Timeform do because they have no choice but ask anyone at Timeform to put money down on the PN horse to beat him they’d run a mile.
Quite frankly, I think Sprinter would give him a stone and still beat him no matter what mark they wont to give him.
I think someone is slightly concerned that Sprinter Sacre might have found abit of opposition for next year…..twitching bum time is it???
Facts are that Santuaire has been very impressive in his 3 runs over fences and taking Somersby as a yardstick, the Queen Mother could be quite a race next year!
Just saying…..
How can you take Somersby as a yardstick? he’s no more a QMCC hore than flying in the air. The fact he beat Finian’s Rainbow has no bearing on things at all/
He gave weight to Sanctuaire and was beaten 17 lengths but when aked the question at the festival he was off levels and Riverside Theatre beat him 17 lengths which makes Riverside Theatre 6 lengths better than Sanctuaire, which means you can do whatever you like with a form book.
Quite simply if both turn up at Chetenham Sprinter might have to go into 3 gear to see him off but trust me he has still has another 2 gears after that if need be.
However Mill House had his supporters and Sanctuaire will have his but hey! what would the world be without misguided muppets?
There’s no arguing Master Minded was one of the most impressive winners ever of the race but on reflection that did have a lot to do with what he beat.
Voy Por Ustedes won the worst QMCC I have ever witnessed when he beat Dempsey and some 10 year old who’s name escapes me.
To be fair to VPU he did have a touch of class but he had lost his 2 mile speed by the time he and MM clashed. In fact he never ran at the trip again despite retaining most of his ability.
Master Minded himself did put up another equally sparkling performance in the Victor Chandler and had most of us fooled that he was the next coming. His runs against Big Zeb and Somersby are probably a truer guide to how good he probably was.
I know I went nuts when they rated him higher than Kauto Star and Denman and had many a debate on here about what his form was really worth.
Sprinter Sacre’s has made such a nonsense of the opposition you could argue they weren’t up to much but considering how well Al Ferof faired against Somersby and Menorah hacked up in the Manifesto the form has a pretty solid look to it.
He’s currently rated 174p by Timeform, IMO no horse ever deserved that P more than he does.
The BHA however rate him inferior to Finian’s Rainbow but would have some job trying to convince Barry Geharty they got that one right…….Conor Murphy is probably the only person at Seven Barrows who would agree with the BHA but then he has a million reasons to do so.
Like a lot of the lads on here I’ve seen my fair share of good horse but never have I seen a young chaser as impressive as this horse. He never puts a foot wrong, the opposition can’t even live with his cruising speed let alone put up any sort of resistance in a finish.
I reckon by this time next year we will be looking at a rating higher than that of Kauto Star’s 180 despite him having a long way to go to achieve what he has.
I take your point on Master Minded but this horse is different gravy as far as I am concerned and it will take something very drastic to happen like Arkle stepping out of his grave and kicking his ass to change my mind
The thing is that Sanctuaire, Sprinter Sacre and Sizing Europe could all meet at Sandown. People are forgetting Sizing’s imperious display there last season, and if he gives a similar performance this year we’ll really see how things stand at the top of the 2 mile chasing tree, and there could well be a serious market shake up.
5/4 about Sprinter is the best offer you are ever likely to get in your entire racing life.
Sizing Europe I love I was his biggest fan on here and wouldn’t here of him losing in the Champion Hurdle (Would have won but for injury) and that was along time before he hacked up in Ireland.
For me he put up the best display of the meeting 2 years back in the QMCC, but that doesn’t even begin to compare with what this horse is capable of.
Horses like Cue Card, Menorah and Alferof are top class performers on their day and they can’t even go a gallop with this fellow.
As far as Sanctuaire goes he’s a horse I do like, He showed signs of turning the corner after appearing to be a bit of a rogue but I wouldn’t have him in the same county as Sprinter Sacre if he were mines.
It’s taken PN a long time to sweeten him up. Put him in a race against Sprinter and the big horse will break his heart by half way and it could send him back to his old ways of spitting the dummy out. To say he’s a couple of pounds behind Sprinter based on that awful race against Somersby is nonsense……2 stone would be nearer the mark.
This is one very special horse and apart from taking all the 5/4 you can get you should be steaming into him remaining unbeaten for the season not trying to find something that might give him a race because none of them could.
Prediction: Sprinter Sacre will start at around 1/7 fav for the QMCC and there will be no more than 6 runners.
Hope the breathing operation holds up on Sprinter Sacre if your taking the 5/4 now, they don’t always last forever.
I can accept that Sprinter Sacre is a worthy fav and do agree that he could frighten off most runners and there could be as few as 6 runners lined up on the day. Which is why Sanctuaire makes plenty of sense each way.
For what its worth I think that Al ferof without his blunder in last years Arkle would have given him plenty to think about, you just need to go back to his Supreme win to see where all his best work came, as he absolutely stormed up the hill. The horse finds plenty and it would have been fascinating to see if they would have duelled up the hill together. People may say that Al ferof was going a stride to quick and thats why he blundered coz he was out his comfort zone and they could be right, but Im more inclined to put it down a bad mistake at the wrong time. But Sanctuire has got to be good value when looking at the form book at 10/1ew, and to ignore his achievements could prove to be expensive. As there are few collateral form lines that would suggest he is the equal of Sprinter Sacre. Cant wait for the Tingle Creek!!!!!!To be blunt he wouldn’t blow wind up Sprinter Sacre’s backside.
You are putting too much emphasis on one performance in what was an end of season race.
Apart from the fact Dominic Elsworth appeared to give Somersby an which is a lot for him awful ride his horse was having his 7th outing of the season. He had run a stormer in The King George cruising until the home turn and then won the Victor Chandler
After that very hard race at Ascot he ran so far below expectations at Cheltenham you would have to question what shape he was in at Sandown. The Celebration Chase could only have been an afterthought for him
Sanctuaire on the other hand in his build up to the race had 2 virtual walk overs, bypassed Cheltenham and was trained specifically for the race. A race which Paul Nichols has won 4 times.
A fresh horse with a touch of class given the softest of leads is a recipe for disaster and that’s exactly how I saw the race.
The race itself was hardly laced with superstars, the from is at least questionable.
Collateral form lines are very dangerous especially in this case with a horse like Sprinter involved who has yet to be out of a canter.
Sanctuaire for me will end up over further and maybe even go Ryanair this coming season
"The race itself was hardly laced with superstars, the from is at least questionable."
Ok, but like you I also believe that French Opera is no Superstar but he is still rated 160 so by no means a mug, but the facts are Sprinter Sacre beat him by 6L in receipt of 5lbs. The same none "superstar" was annihilated by Sanctuaire by 23 lengths off levels.
You make a valid point that Somersby and others could have been over the top by the race and you could be right. As ive mentioned in a previous post its interesting the handicapper took the lowest possible view of the form, as i would suggest you and possibly others have. But I would take a slightly different view and say that Dan Breen (who I believe Sanctuaire was rated through) may have run to personal best and I would be interested if he ran in a handicap under the right conditions as I believe he could have run to a mark nearer to 153.
I love your bravado "To be blunt he wouldn’t blow wind up Sprinter Sacre’s backside" and I’m a firm believer that if you’ve got an opinion then make sure its a strong one and you certainly have one.
Which ever way you look at Sprinter Sacre he is making Sanctuaire a real betting opportunity Im only disappointed that he seems to be attracting a lot of attention in the press this last week and the 12/1 is long gone, and I’d imagine the 10/1 will be disappearing very shorty too.
Keeping my fingers firmly crossed that both get to Cheltenham safely next March so we can see a great race.
And just a quick note, one of those walk overs (Taunton) was over 4 seconds quicker than the Racing Post standard time, ran unchallenged and wasnt pushed and as it was his first run over fences and on good to soft ground, thats pretty good in my book certainly adds some weight to a horses ability (although you cant always trust the rails haven’t been moved in!!!)
Me have a strong opinion Billy? Never!!!
The only problem backing Sanctuaire EW for the QMCC is, will you get a run for your money?
If the two clash in the Tingle Creek and Sprinter Sacre proves to be a far superior animal, which I believe he will, what then?
I know in the past PN has sent the likes of Twist Magic for the race knowing he had no chance of winning but that was believe it or not no more than a prep race for things to come where he was concerned.
Sanctuaire is a different ball game. He would have a realistic chance of winning one of the other Grade 1’s at the meeting as he does appear to stay further than 2 miles.
If he gets thrashed in the Tingle Creek I think PN will already have another target in mind.
My hope is that Sizing Europe proves to be as good as ever this coming season so we can see just how good Sprinter Sacre is.
Despite the fantastic record Kauto Star has I can see this horse reaching a higher rating than Kauto’s 193 within the next couple of seasons if not this coming season.
Arkle’s first win at Cheltenham was in the now RSA when he hacked up by 20 lengths. This fellow at this stage of his career is every bit as impressive as he was.
To each his own but I couldn’t even imagine him being beaten and simply couldn’t back anything in a race against him as it would take the fun out of seeing him run.
As I understand it the plan is to run Sanctuaire in the Tingle Creek then one other race prior to the Queen Mother, as PN believes he is a better horse fresh and doesn’t take his races too well. From a Sanctuaire "fans" point of view it’s reassuring that PN at last seems to know how to get the best out of him at last.
If Sanctuaire is soundly beaten in the Tingle Creek then I’m not convinced that PN Wud automatically step him up in trip as you described, in fact I think that wud be the least likely option, although I accept that it wud be a slight concern. Much more likely is the possibility of sizing Europe being stepped up this year, in fact do we know if he is even going to start over 2 miles this year, I’d be surprised if he was. Beaten by Finians last march who id agree is no sprinter sacre, surely he will be destined for a different target? And he now is at last chance saloon in his career to land the big one
Told you the 10/1 Sanctuaire wouldnt last long lol!!!!!
9/1 best priced now, its not my money I promise you.I think the best back to lay in the race could be Sizing Europe at around 12/1.
I’d wait to see if he bypasses the Tingle Creek first though.
If he does and Sprinter kicks Sanctuaire into touch which I am certain he will do the Sanctuaire will drift like a barge and Sprinter Sacre will go to about 4/6 for the race..
Next in the betting is Finian’s Rainbow but if he runs a big race in the King George you can forget him running in the QMCC.
Nicky has so much confidence in Sprinter Sacre he doesn’t need a back up in the race but if Finian’s Rainbow gets 3 miles it is more likely he will either join Riverside Theatre in the Ryanaiir or there’s even a remote chance he could go for the Gold Cup.
In the meantime if Sizing Europe wins a couple of races in Ireland and shows his old form he’ll automatically be 2nd fav for the race.
If on the other hand he also goes for the Tingle Creek he’ll get a dose of the same medicine Sanctuair will and Sprinter Sacre will be 2/5 for the race or less as there’s every chance absolutely nothing of note will want to take him on.
So there could be a chance of making a few quid of Sizing Europe but as far as the race goes the 5/4 available about Sprinter Sacre is most likely the best bet your ever likely to see because on the day he could face next nothing and go off at 1/10.
Horses like Cue Card, Alferof and possibly Menorah have already been committed to going elsewhere because they think this horse is unbeatable and I really don’t see the attitude of the trainers of the older horses being any different after he hacks up in the Tingle Creek.
Sanctuaire and Sizing Europe are both capable of winning a race like the Ryanair and I think that’s where they will end up running if anywhere
I think you could be right about sizing europe, although every year HDB seems intent on stepping him up in trip believing he could be a Gold Cup horse, the form book tells a different story though. I wouldn’t be surprised if he did this again and if he some how wins first time out this year then he might take a different path to the 2 mile chase route he has taken previously. But there really doesn’t appear to be a serious challenge from Ireland at present as I’m kind of ruling Big Zeb out really, as despite being a great horse his best days appear to be behind him now and again might look at other targets upped in trip perhaps.
Finnians Rainbow looks certain to step up for reasons you have stated. I think that Riverside Theatre will be aimed at the Gold Cup this year rightly or wrongly though.
On Sanctuaire, even if he gets beat in the Tingle Creek (I accept that this is the most likely outcome however no where near the certainty you are predicting, and can not wait to watch the race), PFN will put him away till the festival and run him in the Champ Chase, of that I’m absolutely sure, probably citing that he is much better on good ground in the spring or some other excuse blah blah blah. If Sanctuaire is fit ill be gob smacked if he doesn’t take his place in the starting line up for the Champ Chase. And for the record I think that Sprinter will face his toughest challenge yet (apart from getting battered by Al Ferof in the Supreme) against Sanctuaire and it will be an amazing spectacle I just hope they get to the race fit and well so we can all enjoy seeing a true champion and possibly legend at the peak of their powers.
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