Political Blogs

[clivex]

I couldnt give a fck about one soldiers quote and your desperate attempt to pin the whole of american culture on it. He is not a leader.Get it? do you understand how these things work?

Nasrallah and the Hamas facist are leaders? Do you know the difference between that and one soldier?

And whats happened in 200 years ago is of no relevence to the current argument which is taht Chomsky and others believe we should respect those that come out with the "rhetoric" (which you have come suprsinglyy close to defending…perhaps we need to know a lot a little more about some of your views eh?)

There is no current genocidal threat to american indians

[Grasshopper]

There is no current genocidal threat to Israel either, clivex – unless you are a propaganda-swallowing eejit of the highest order, who is inacapable of seeing Middle-Eastern politicking for what it is.

You know the type, I’m talking about…..the kind of tunnel-visioned mutton-head that considers people like Melanie Phillips to have insight.

[clivex]

Big difference and missing the point entirely

Do you think an american president could stand on the ticket of eradicating Latins say? or the remaining Indians?

Do you think a Hamas leader can stand on that ticket? It would appear that they do so already doesnt it?

If you think the calls for eradication of races is simple "politiking" i look forward to similar excuses being made for the extreme right in europe who would merely expel rather than kill certain races.

If the islamists could. they would. With such "rhetoric" fliting around and such "leadership" it is a natural consequence that the followers will be wrapped up in the same racist mania that took hold of Germany ion the 1930’s. Where will that lead?

Of course, much of the left has strong sympathies with their aims.

[Grasshopper]

Clivex, as usual, you let your abundant hysteria get in the way of a rationale assessment of the facts.

No-one – not Hamas, not Hizbollah, not even your old pal Ahmedinejad – has called for "eradication" of any "race". Their issue is with the State of Israel, which is an entirely different thing.

I am getting quite frustrated that a clearly intelligent man like yourself fails to acknowledge this, and can only assume that you wilfully ignore it, because it blows a gaping hole in your argument.

Now, they are all of them, of course, living in denial, if they think the State of Israel has no right to exist. I am very much an advocate of it’s retention, and live in hope that a two-State solution can be found, where the faacking lot of them live in peace and harmony for ever more.

Now….you tell me………..does that make me a Leftie, or a Rightie?

Your constant appending of labels to people who hold particular views does you no credit whatsoever. It smacks of laziness, and a failure to grasp that there is no left/right, black/white in most things – only various shades of grey.

[Andrew Hughes]

Point I’m making is – I can’t find anything remotely similar in the literature about Muslim genocide. Slavery, yes (horrible slavery). Caste systems, of course. Racism, yes. Intolerance, sadly. Suppression of women? yes. But the active removal of another race to further nationalistic aims? Genocide? Not really

Hmm. Reluctant as I am to enter the ‘your massacre was bigger than my massacre’ debate, I just can’t let this pass. Let us examine the record of the Muslim Khilafah (Caliphate) in its final years:

1821. In response to an uprising and massacre by Greek nationalists, Ottomans massacre 27,000 men women and children on the island of Chios.

1842-47. Three massacres of Assyrians, the final one resulting in the death of 30,000 Assyrian Christians.

1860. 12,000 Maronite and other Christians massacred in Lebanon by Druze and Kurdish forces with the conivance of the Ottoman authorities. A further 11,000 Assyrian Christians massacred in Damascus.

1876. 12,000 Bulgarians massacred on the orders of Sultan Abdul Hamid II.

1894-96. 300,000 Armenians and Assyrians massacred on the orders of Sultan Abdul Hamid II.

1915. 1.5 million Armenians and 250,000 Assyrians massacred, many of them crucified in systematic and genocidal ethnic cleansing. As many as 200,000 Armenians convert to Islam to save themselves.

I make these points not to suggest that Islam is any more given to genocide than other religions, but simply to point out that genocide or mass murder is not the sole preserve of the Americans or the Nazis, but unfortunately a common thread in our history.

[clivex]

No-one – not Hamas, not Hizbollah, not even your old pal Ahmedinejad – has called for "eradication" of any "race

Nasrallah

If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002)

Hamas leadership
"Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, vanquish the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one

How much more explicit do they need to be FFS

I know full well that much of the left does not act as apologists for the islamist tendency but at the same time, it is only the far left (and some fat idiots like Hattersley) that does so

[Maxilon 5]

Andrew, the majority of figures you highlight are massacres and not genocides.. 1915 apart – and you can argue that was due to European influences.

Breaking down the word, the process of genocide is about the elimination of genes. The Arawak Indian for example, or the ethnic Tasmanian who was extinct by 1850. A curator at the British Museum was asked last week about the return of plundered native art. The interviewer referred to a piece of Tasmanian bushcraft. The curator, quite archly, replied “who do I send it back to?”

You describe massacres by military means and either as a consequence of military action or an antecedent to it. Genocides on the other hand occur via a combination of methodologies, some deliberate, some consequential = including systematic murder, enslavement, interbreeding, localised environmental destruction, biological incompatability, cultural exile and transportation.

The first Internet dictionary I summoned gave me this precise definition:

“Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group”

I responded to Clive when he made the point (seemingly from nowhere), that this particular leader of Hamas was advocating the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political or cultural group; the Americans.

I consider his exhortation to be the rhetoric of the dispossessed because they have neither the means, nor really, the will to carry all this out. Unlike the Western European nations who have more top quality form in the genocide stakes than Park Top when it comes to attempting to wipe out less developed nations in order to settle, to exhume resources or to gain comparative economic advantage.

[Andrew Hughes]

Maxilon, you specifically stated that you could find no evidence of Muslim genocide. 1915 was just such an example. A deliberate and systematic attempt to exterminate an ethnic group, in this case, the Armenian Christians. It was done by transportation and systematic murder.

The etymology of genocide is not related to genes or genetics (words which derive from the Greek word ‘genes’ meaning ‘born’) nor does it specify means, aims or context. It is merely the combination of the Greek genos (race) with the Latin caedere (to kill). To kill a race. It could be argued that mass killings confined to one ethnic group constitute an attempt at genocide. We then get into the rather distasteful area of assessing how many people have to be killed before we consider it genocide. Genocide or mass-murder confined to people of one particular ethnic group surely amount to the same thing in human terms?

My contributions to this thread have merely been to query or get further clarification on certain facts that appear at first glance to be questionable. It sometimes seems to be pedantic but without facts, there can be no argument and no meaningful debate. Beyond that, I don’t feel I have sufficient expertise or knowledge in the areas under discussion to put forward worthwhile arguments.

[Maxilon 5]

I did say, 1915 apart, Andrew. It’s a fair point though. Interestingly, the Turks have yet to label the process as a genocide.

Sorry you’re not interested in the debate and thanks for letting us all know.

[Andrew Hughes]

Interestingly, the Turks have yet to label the process as a genocide.

Or indeed to acknowledge that it took place.

I could have phrased my comments about the debate better. In fact, I think I will.

[Maxilon 5]

History is always written by the victor, isn’t it.

I’ll drop the genocide stuff. I was triggered a little bit by the Hamas quote and I had plenty of time. You’re right anyway – it’s a macabre subject with a worrying logical conclusion.

[clivex]

consider his exhortation to be the rhetoric of the dispossessed because they have neither the means, nor really, the will to carry all this out

Again laughable stuff. You just assume that they dont have the "will"2 because that suits your prejudices. You have no idea at all about that. None at all

AQ certainly has "the will". Many islamists strongly believe that the christian and jews have to be exterminated. thats not up for debate

Hitler once didnt have "the means" and i suppose was there fore not assumed to have "the will" wasnt he?

it takes one nuclear weapon in these peoples hands to give them the means.

You would not answer whether you would take the same hand wringingline against a far right european party or the KKK say who proposed the same action against blacks say

[Andrew Hughes]

It seems like every page of human history is full of this brutality. We should know about it, but sometimes it is too much to take in.

[Grasshopper]

Again laughable stuff. You just assume that they dont have the "will"2 because that suits your prejudices. You have no idea at all about that. None at all.

And it naturally follows, that neither do you, clivex.

You assume they do have the will/means, just as much as Maxilon assumes they don’t. It therefore becomes a question of who’s scenario is most likely.

You appear to think that Hizbollah, Hamas and/or Iran are just itching to lob a nuke in to Israel – despite the fact that it would lead to the annhilation of the very peoples such a move is supposed to ‘free’. It would also lead to massive retaliatory attacks from not only Israel, but it’s Western allies, and effectively wipe the Middle East from the map.

Do you really think that this outcome forms part of any masterplan – be it the one held by Hizbollah, Hamas or Ahmedinejad? Do you genuinely, truly believe it? Isn’t it a bit nihilistic and ultimately counter-productive?

Or is it more likely that talk of annihilating the jews and the Infidels is indeed the rhetoric that Max claims it to be, and it is merely poltical posturing, delivered in a style intended for a particular audience?

You have to ask yourself – which seems more likely?

[clivex]

Or is it more likely that talk of annihilating the jews and the Infidels is indeed the rhetoric that Max claims it to be, and it is merely poltical posturing, delivered in a style intended for a particular audience?

and that makes it ok does it?

Yet again, the point that any other party proposing the same would be beyond the pale and not championed by chomsky and others.No one would go near them…"rhetoric" or not. Their beliefs are way to the extremes of the KKk and combat 18 ffs

No one answers this

Yet again the lefts dismal defence of the islamofacsits raises its head.

I would venture that if the islamists could annilihate the jews and christians they would. the extreme edge of that religion has it banged into them since birth that there is no place for us to exist.

but its only a bit of fun isnt it? A bit of football style banter?

[Maxilon 5]

I couldnt give a fck about one soldiers quote and your desperate attempt to pin the whole of american culture on it. He is not a leader.Get it? do you understand how these things work?

Sorry, I missed this earlier.

Firstly – and to save any accusations of bias or hatred, my girlfriend is American. She and I have had long discussions on the topics I’ve raised in this thread. There are probably more hardline Communists and revisionist historians in the US than there are in Europe – they are just quieter (they have to be). I answered your dismissal of the famous quote earlier to my satisfaction.

I suppose if the BNP came out and siad that it wanted to exterminate blacks (which is doesnt…Hamas is way to the right of the BNP of course) that could be excused as the “rhetoric of the dispossesed”?

How is Hamas way to the right of the BNP? You keep ascertaining that these people are extreme right wing? I can’t see it.

As for the BNP. Check this out.

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com

I can understand a certain amount of regret about multi-culturalism. We all look back wistfully at the old days (which of course, never existed).

Old maids cycling to market. Coppers with handlebar moustaches. Cheeky, but respectful kids. George Formby’s banjo. The three R’s. Rubbers the thickness of wellington boots. The Palais. Marathon bars. Spotlessly clean steps. The suit in the pawn shop. Two and six. Macmillan. Warm bitter. Wednesday half day. Pyjamas. Bobby Moore and Dennis Compton, Arkle and Mill House.

Yet strip away the veneer of wistfulness, some of the people involved in the BNP (and before them, the British Movement, the National Front, Combat 18 and the League of St George – who make Hamas look like the Lambourn branch of the Women’s Institute) would happily turn their violent rhetoric into action. You know it and I know it. It’s the logical conclusion of all right wing extremism.

I just pray to God these loonies don’t extend their grubby tendrils further onto the handlebars of power.

Yet the BNP aren’t dispossessed. No-one is bombing their cities. There are no civilian casualties in Burnley. There are no kids dying of shrapnel wounds in Bradford. No-one is cutting off water or medical supplies. No foreign power has marched into Leatherhead and camped just off the high street.

So the argument aren’t comparable – the hidden rhetoric of the KKK and the BNP is much more sinister.

[Maxilon 5]

I found the complete text of Shirer’s book.

I was searching for a specific quote in the book and threw a few keywords into the Net. It came up with this.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2629354/-The- … -William-L

Looks an amazing site – with loads of goodies.

[Author]

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