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No, Clivex, we were always the "Sick Man of Europe". How you swallow that patently transparent right-wing proaganda is a total mystery to me. Don’t you see, now, that it was always a sick joke.
The real "British Disease" was always "corporatism". Our leaders never publicly acknowledged their fanatical adulation of Hitler and Mussolini before the war, and after atheistic Socialism (which it had become, despite Keir Hardie’s Christian faith) had degenerated, before actually performing a 180 degee turn to the far right, it recrudesced in the form we see it now, in which big business runs the government: Mussolini’s "corporatism" – the fathomless greed of the Have Yachts always leads contries ot war and ecoomic ruin.
People are always having to fight a reargurad action agaisnt big buinsess interest but France has not pursue privatisation with anything like the same fanaticism as Thatcher. The French people woldn’t allow it. Thanks to the European Union, they have been privatising, but for example the majority of French railway workers are still public servants. And do you really think public companies would have created a system as succssful as the TGV.
It was reported the other day on C4 News that BMW in Germany had laid off its workforce for a month on full pay! In the UK, people are laid off to save as much money as the thieving directors and sharehloders can lay their hands on.
As for Germany, did you read Will Hutton’s book, The State We’re in? If so, you must have forgotten that they try to avoid strikes by government unions and industry getting together to hammer out fair deals for the workforce, while the banks familiarise themselves with the needs of the companies they serve – yes, actually serve – instead of trying to twist everyone. They evidently have an odd concept called the common good.
Read this and weep for the kind of people you are endeavouring to support:
Thanks for that, Grimes. A beautifully, beautifully written article: Compulsive reading which made me feel completely ill.
I’d have them all strung up. But it’s too late now.
Pleasure, Maxilon. My first response to it was inappropriate, because it was late and I’d just read the first half of the post on the page. I was in hysterics, because you can’t keep the misery and despair of so much of mankind because of the greed and cruelty of the rest, at the forefront of your mind.
Still, I noticed very quickly a post to the thread of someone whose daughter and family were directly affected by it all, and in fact, when I read the rest of it, the final part at that link I cited here, I could see that there was no longer a whole lot to laugh at.
In case you are interested, here is the response I eventually made:
KCabotDullesMarxIII is my username:http://www.democraticunderground.com/di … _id=401551
Did you notice Francis Pym left about £2,300,000 in his will? I could be wrong, but I suspect it’s no accident that he left that much available for imposition of death duties. Some of those ol Tories, so-called "wets", would turn in their graves if they saw what had happened to this country, and even more so, at the thought of these Tories.
Did you ever read any of the articles and intervews with Nassim Nicholas Taleb? Another tremendous read.
No, Clivex, we were always the "Sick Man of Europe
And since when has that phrase been used since Thatchers time?
was reported the other day on C4 News that BMW in Germany had laid off its workforce for a month on full pay! In the UK, people are laid off to save as much money as the thieving directors and sharehloders can lay their hands on.
If Gm had laid off its workers on "full pay" there would be no GM. BMW may have the luxury of doing so but to state that all redundanices are simply director and shareholder greed is bizarre. Simply put it is as often as not about the survival of the company. And its pretty obvious that any company that wants to remain competitive will produce with the optimum number of staff
Short term "shareholder value" can be absued in certain businesses but in the medium term, simply laying people off for "greed" and thus by implication overworking the remaining workforce, will lead to a failing demoralised company. A company riven with regular redundancies will not keep or attrct the best people (ive seen this first hand). it is a decision that is not taken as lightly as you imagine and experience in the business sector would surely have taught anyone that
Our leaders never publicly acknowledged their fanatical adulation of Hitler and Mussolini before the war,
Oh come off it. Thats ridiculous grimes
The lives of the leaders at that time have been picked over in intense detail by many historians from all sides and quite frankly, with some excpetions (usually amongst the relatively powerless aristocracy) there has been very little evidence of this. lloyd george? Baldwin?
Either esy, the beliefs of the facsist are a world away from the straightforward liberal democrats. Naturlly as we all know, they were a cigarette paper away from the far left. Nationl Socialism wasnt it?
and as we all know, the far left continues to flirt heavily with facism today. In teh form of the deeply racist, bigoted and violent islamists. I have always felt that their strict authoritinarism is the biggest attraction
Clivex, you have an astonishing gift for missing the point completely. The reason why there was no margin for the kind of lay-off payments paid by BMW were (when we had a car industry apart from Reliant Robin) precisely because they had been badly managed from the top down. It was concluded by people knowledgeablke about the industry that it was not the fault of the workers or of Red Robbo’s and the union leaders, but of management – starting at the top.
But let’s suppose there had been a margin that could have ben used to make such payments. Do you realy think that, rather than pay it to the directros and shareholders, our automotive would have considered for one second paying the worers a month’s pay, while laid off. Because the sharehodlers in this "rentier" economy of ours hold the country to ransom, and they in turn are held to ransom by the CEO’s and directors. It’s not a close secret.
What’s the matter with you? Can’t you see, now that your favoured right-wing policies have brought the world to whhat looks like the verge of an economic AND environmental apocalypse, and that the hidden hand was only hidden because it never existed? It wasn’t allowed to, because the mixed economy Adam Smith favoured was sneered at by your loony Thatcherite friends. And the vigilant control over those Smith effectively described as recidivists, British businessmen, was relaxed, resulting in this current nightmare situation.
As for your strictures concerning my comments on the fanatical infatuation with Mussolini and Hitler simply highlights how little you know of the subject.
Here is a little quote from Ken Livingstone:
"Although we uniquely have some brilliant newspapers and first-rate journalists, their standing is dragged down by what must be some of the most reprehensibly managed, edited and owned newspapers in the world.
"They have a disgraceful record, none more so than the Daily Mail," he said.
"When it was first set up [in 1896] its first campaign was against Jewish refugees coming to London from the pogroms. It continued its anti-Semitism in the 1930s, fighting any proposals that Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler should be admitted to this country."
He said the Mail had run stories supporting fascism and that its owner, the 1st Viscount Rothermere, the great-grandfather of the present proprietor, had welcomed Hitler’s rise. (on edit: he actually held a dinner for Hitler)
"Had Britain lost the war and had the Nazis controlled Britain, Lord Rothermere and his cohorts would have been at the front of the queue of collaborators."
He said the Mail had continued to discriminate against minorities since the war, demonising first Irish immigrants and now asylum seekers."
And bear in mind, a popular right-wing paper does not go out on a limb to tout politics reviled by the monied classes. Quite the contrary. The Mirror, catering for the working man, attracted a great deal of admiration during and after the war for its stand against the Hitler and the Nazis.
A headline of the front page of the Daily Mail used the term, the wonderful "Mr Mussolini and his blackshirts." Why do you think Harmsworth went to live in Paris after the war?
And when Thatcher’s Mr Law and Order, Hailsham, the then Quintin Hogg stood for the Tory seat in an Oxfor bye-election, the historian, A J P Taylor, states that he used as his slogan, "A vote for Hogg, is a vote for Hitler!" AND HE WON! Now tell me the monied people didn’t worship the ground he walked on. He did wonders for the stockmarket you know. For a while… Moreover, Chomsky says tha as late as 1938, our leaders could probably have stopped Hitler and the Nazis in their tracks; but certainly in 1937. But they didnt want to! Why do you think so many documents are to be kept secret for 100 years?
I told you, Clivex. it’s pointless our arguing. You seem to know know very little about these matters. And what you do, you manage to get wrong. No offence, but that’s the reality.
Did you know that Britain has been industrial decline since the middle of the 19th century? While the German’s prized engineering and the sciences, and do so to this day. In the UK, they are looked down on in favour of the legal professions, if you please! And even in that we turn Justice into a kind of tournament to see which party has the smartest barrister(s).
Did you read Will Hutton’s "The State We’re In?" If you did, you have scant excuse for failing to understand why the Germans show us up as such degenerates. If you haven’t read it, you should make a point of doing so.
And before you strart leading off abour Reds under the bed, the reason why we are not talking German now, is because of the Communist Russians. And thank your lucky stars that though Stalin was a vicious psychopath, he wasn’t a syphilitic half-wit, like Hitler. And the reason we’re not speaking Russian now is probably because of the Americans.
Bear in mind, Clivex, a popular right-wing paper does not go out on a limb to tout politics reviled by the monied classes. Quite the contrary. The Mirror, catering for the working man, attracted a great deal of admiration during and after the war for its stand against the Hitler and the Nazis.
Bear in mind, Clivex, a popular right-wing paper does not go out on a limb to tout politics reviled by the monied classes. Quite the contrary. The Mirror, catering for the working man, attracted a great deal of admiration during and after the war for its stand against the Hitler and the Nazis.
Grimes, thanks for the link. I’ll be reading.
Just a quick point. You mentioned Sir Francis Pym earlier in mildly positive terms. That type of "wet" Tory (Hurd, Joseph etc), so beloved of the "Fairchild" working class for their benevolence and social concern, always reminded me of Washington and Lincoln who spouted Socrates from raised marble plinths while their six hundred malnourished negro slaves worked seven days a week on their plantations.
Remember that popular phrase from the late Eighties? Never trust a Tory.
Well if that’s the case marble, they should stop passing laws that they themselves aren’t prepared to play by.
grimes…Ken has made a number of anti semitic remarks. Hes promoted those who call fro terrorism against jews worldwide. his credentials in this area are shot to pieces
What’s the matter with you? Can’t you see, now that your favoured right-wing policies have brought the world to whhat looks like the verge of an economic AND environmental apocalypse
Really? Your shining beacon of Germany has also hit a hard recession too. I would like to know what your alternative to free markets policies are , because from where im sitting…none have worked
BMW are a wealthy private company. I would venture that when it has come to laying off staff in germany they are very much the excpetion rather than the rule
and you can gaurantee that if they are employing more staff than they need, they will soon be looking at redundancies…just like the evil uk companies
told you, Clivex. it’s pointless our arguing. You seem to know know very little about these matters. And what you do, you manage to get wrong. No offence, but that’s the reality.
No. you havent backed up your assertions about the pre war leadership. One newspaper means nothing
Overall that a somewhat arrogant statement, especially given that youve barely answered a single point that i have raised
It was a newspaper, Andrew. It would either have been the Mail or the Mirror. Quite a lengthy article. It didn’t give the impression that it was expected to be denied, either. But, in any case, it makes sense, doesn’t it. I
I’m sorry Grimes, but though I suspect if we met I would be in sympathy with your political philosophies, I can’t let this pass. One of the problems with modern political discourse is that people are so desperate to express a strong opinion that they sweep along on a tide of rhetoric, grabbing at facts as they go, embroidering or sometimes just making it up as they go along. It is one of the features of right-wing cable opinion shows, such as the O’Reilly Factor, brilliantly lampooned by Steve Colbert as ‘truthiness’ – facts that aren’t really facts but feel as though they should be.
Now I’m no fan of Tony Blair and am quite open to persuasion on the subject of his untrustworthiness, but unless you can produce some evidence that he was groomed by MI5 at University to ‘kill our democracy’ I’m going to have to dismiss this as ‘truthiness’
And the same goes for this:
the then Quintin Hogg stood for the Tory seat in an Oxfor bye-election, the historian, A J P Taylor, states that he used as his slogan, "A vote for Hogg, is a vote for Hitler!"
I have not been able to find that AJP Taylor reference, so I’d be grateful if you could point me in the right direction. As far as I have been able to ascertain, it was a slogan broadcast on loudspeaker vans by an opponent at the bi-election, which does seem more likely. However, I stand to be corrected in this matter if you could point out the reference.
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Grimes, this was overed on another thread, so I’l respond with the same answer
“A vote for Hogg is vote for Hitler”! AND HE WON THE SEAT.
This by-election was a single issue by-election, and hogg was basically put in place to supprt to ‘official’ goverment appeasment policy, in order to keep Britain out of a war. It is unfair to quote just the above, which implies he ws a Nazi supporter.Chomsky says tha as late as 1938, our leaders could probably have stopped Hitler and the Nazis in their tracks; but certainly in 1937. But they didnt want to! Why do you think so many documents are to be kept secret for 100 years?
This ignores the wider political and miliatry situation both in Europe and worldwide. Taken on its own, it is, infact, nonsense.syphilitic half-wit, like Hitler.
Many things that Hitler was, and indeed wasn’t, a half wit he certainy was not.Andrew, if you think I want you to believe what I say, you misunderstand me. I write what I believe to be the truth, but once I’ve done that I feel I’ve discharged my responsibility in that regard, and how people respond is up to them.
And no, while I pick up information, I don’t keep records of the items filed away in any physical shape or form. So I can’t point you in the direction of A J P Taylor’s book citing it, but see above, or where I read about Blair’s being groomed by MI5. So, if you don’t want to believe it, it should be a lot easier. Personally I do. O’Reilly is worse than a sick joke, but I’m aware that I sound a ranter, but unliek you folks, I don’t see all this as a matter discussin, still les argument, but a matter of life and death for all too many people.
Below, is a link to an article ( 4 pages) about preparations for economic collapse, written by a 26-year-old Argentinian, who sounds more like a 46-year old to me. Read it and you’ll find out why. But even if you are a hard right-winger, I beg you not to read it, if you do not have very strong morale and are not likely to be scared or depressed by the thought of the starvation of young children, not in Africa but here, and the most vicious criminal anarchy everywhere.
Thanks to our welfare state, residual though it is now, created by the old Labour party, this is a very, very different country to Argentina, and in any case, I, personally, am optimistic about the future, though with no obvious rationale.
I’m not sure if I posted Orlov’s descrption of Russia’s collapse AGAIN due to our unspeakably wicked, indeed, criminal neo-liberalism lunacy. Yes, I know I sounded arrogant Clivex, and felt bad enough about it to go back and temper the way I expressed myself. Anyway, the effects of the collapse, although it entailed marauding criminal gangs and grouping together for protection, did to seem to be anything like as bad as in Argentina. Bartering took over form currency, and people were able to stay in their homes that had been provided by the government in any case.
Alchemist, any leader who opens a front to attack Russia, before subduing us, as usual, against the advice of his generals, who had forgotten more about strategy that he had ever learnt, and wants to destroy his country because he didn’t think it worthy of him, is not quite the round shilling, in my book. Sorry. I think that video clip I posted here a while back flatters him.
Anyway, for those of you with a strong stomach, here is the link:
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/10.08/tshtf1.html
Clivex, I’ve always loathed anti-Semitism, and I know Livingstone is a politician first and last. But even as such, I know that he is better for the country than by far than any right-winger now. I believe Boris has taken over a good few of his policies for London.
As regards his anti-Semitism, though, I can’t know its foundation, whether racist or geopolitical. If the latter, Chomsky, himself, Jewish, has disabused me of the role of Israel as the victim in the middle east, and it was not something I wanted to believe, because I see Israel as the mother and father of Christianity. Without Judaism, there would have been no Christianity.
Israel had the first stirrings of a welfare state 3000 years or more ago. I’m afraid they have been used as a tool by the imperialists in Washington. Read that book I mentioned, What We Say Goes, and you’ll see what I’m talking about. In Christ’s day, the Gentiles were known by the Jews for their cruelty, hence the handing over of Christ to Pilate to be crucified. Their law didn’t provide for it.
Maxilon, Hurd was anything but a so-called, "wet"and Joseph was as far right as it’s possible to be. Remember he was Thatcher’s guru, and known as the "Mad Monk" (well, I was mistakenly dubbed Rasputin!). Gilmour, Prior and Howe were among the "wets".
I hope it doesn’t sound churlish, but I’m not going to resond any more on here, because I think in a way we’re posting at cross-purposes, and I’ve said my piece. Anyway, you were getting along fine here before my posts. And I’m sorry for the harshness of the things I say, Clive. They are not targeted at individuals at all.
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