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Yet again the lefts dismal defence of the islamofacsits raises its head.
Who is defending islamofascists? I was asking you a question, you tit.
Yet strip away the veneer of wistfulness, some of the people involved in the BNP (and before them, the British Movement, the National Front, Combat 18 and the League of St George – who make Hamas look like the Lambourn branch of the Women’s Institute) would happily turn their violent rhetoric into action. You know it and I know it. It’s the logical conclusion of all right wing extremism.
Is this serious?
(Grasshopper…you question has been answered )
I think the call to exterminate races is what might be described as somewhat extremist? The hatred of gays, women, adulterers can be thrown in the mix too dont you think?
Since when has the BNP called for the extermination of a race? Does it carry out suicide bombings against innocent civilians?
Dont you see how Hamas has behaved within the Palestine areas already?
there is a strong far right representation in Austria now. They have had control of certain areas as have the far right in france and belgium. And where in those areas have we seen the violence and oppresion of Hamas and the genocidal statements of their leaders?
Strange isnt it the "logical conclusion" of the BNP rhetoric (which doesnt call for any killings) is violence but with Hamas (which explicitly calls for mass killings) its "womens institute" stuff
Bizarre
There is no current genocidal threat to american indians
Excuse me interrupting and this topic may have run it’s course or you may or may not be interested at all in this, but I have a pen friend – a reservation Indian – and I asked him some questions relating to this. I quote my few questions, and with his permission, quote his responses below:-
Do you believe that systematic genocide has actually taken place against the American Indian over the last 500 years ? [if this is not a daft question], and just as important, do you think it is still going on, either in your area or all Indian nations in the States?
Yes, personally and professionally I do feel that a systematic genocide has taken place and here’s my opinion as to why. First and foremost the Indigenous peoples of the Americas were looked upon as not only sub-human from most European points of view at the time but also as potential subjects of God regardless, and need to be converted into good Christians.
So a major reason why genocide occurred was the desire to colonize lands and conquer these “subjects”, as well as add them to the control the Church and states, even after being told they were recognized as sovereign entities. Secondly it was the combination of greed and necessity. Gold being the goal of Europeans explorers and raw goods the desire of Monarchs; so either you agreed to the terms colonial leaders, Kings and eventually the U.S set or you were subject to relocation, internment, or extermination.
Best example of this is the Indian Removal Policy during the Jackson Administration and the Dawes Severalty Act 50 years later, which opened up tribal lands for white settlement or outright tribal termination. Genocide was caused directly, and indirectly by colonization and by United States government policy.Does it still happen today? That’s hard to answer. I’d say there’s not a physical attempt at genocide but there certainly attacks on tribal sovereignty. Attacks on sovereignty are the biggest threat to the survival of all Indian tribes.
Are current disputes between Indians and US government more over water rights than anything else, or is this something building up for the future?
There are many disputes that involve individual tribes, states, The U.S Department of The Interior, and individuals that are currently on going.
The big three are Sovereignty issues, IGRA or Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (casinos), and hunting and fishing or treaty rights in general. Cobell v. Norton/Kempthorne, the growing power of Indian Casinos, estimated at 20 billion a year for 2008 or more in revenues, and water and fishing rights, most recently challenged in Alaska by governor and former VP candidate Sarah Palin are just a few examples of what Indian tribes are faced with.
Water and fishing was something guaranteed by treaty rights.
Since most treaties were broken, amended, or ignored completely the fight remains ongoing to secure them. All these issues are very serious.It seems to me there are very few full blood indians left now, and even less who speak their native languages and know traditional culture and religion. Perhaps there are more where you are?
Do you think the Indian is truly a vanishing race and that within 50 years or so, they will not be thought of as a separate entity at all, but simply brown skinned Americans with little contact with their history/language/culture integrated into the mainstream. Or have we already arrived at this point?[i:1kv4vcoc]Great question. Each tribe is different. I live in South Dakota and in our state we have eight other [Sioux] tribes with Dakota, Nakota, and Lakota as traditional languages. Dakota and Nakota are dying languages. Lakota is still spoken because they have higher population percentages. Across the board however, languages are in a dying trend. So in 50 years it’s hard to say how many speakers there will be but in the last 50 the languages have really shrank. I think blood quanta will still continue to decrease but Indians won’t be totally eradicated. It’s very well possible though that in 100 years cultures will be gone[/i:1kv4vcoc].
If anyone found that of interest – thank you for reading.
My point was extremely serious Clive.
I remember buying “The Phoenix” in 1979. You’ll know what that humble organ was, I’m sure. I purchased it when I was fifteen from some old school Chelsea fans who were recruiting for the British Movement on Trent Bridge. That was popular then, recruiting for right wing extremist parties at football matches – before the prawn sandwich brigade changed the nature of football. And the rozzers turned a blind-eye.
My father caught me with the pamphlet and – thank God – burnt the thing and gave me a good telling off. God knows, without that intervention, I could have ended up voting Tory!
Anyway, you already know what was contained in that pamphlet, Clive. The usual tiny-dicked, insecure rubbish, Holocaust denial, admiration of the German war effort – no, the Waffen SS war effort, half-baked Nordic mythology, denunciation of the Zionist media, wild conspiracies, Enoch Powell, strength-through-joy homages, deification of the oppressed white working man (there’s a strong link between gay men and Nazi iconography in my opinion – the muscular biceps, the sweaty brow, the bib-and-brace); suppression of feminism, anti-trade union rhetoric, rose-tinted views of the British Empire, rewritng of British social history, amplification of crimes committed by ethnic minorities, anti-Soviet essays, crude cartoons of shifty looking black men raping screaming blonde schoolgirls, you know, that sort of thing.
Pretty much the same as the BNP today, except more explicit. The BNP are a politically correct British Movement, Clive. Secretly, they believe all that Aryan lebensraum nonsense. Nick Griffin, right? Write to him and ask whether he was ever a member of the British Movement – an organisation that openly espoused the systematic murder of black and asian people before the election of the Devil’s Daughter made it’s existence largely unnecessary.
I re-read your Hamas quote earlier today. The arguments are just not the same. Like Mrs Mare’s admirable contribution above – quotes from someone involved – the Muslim world is scared stiff of the power, the triumphalism and the greed of the Western world.
I recently saw a photo of an Afghan village razed to the ground by an experimental daisy-cutter bomb. There was a single tree stump left where once a village of two hundred people stood. Nothing survived that bomb, Clive, not a solitary green shoot. If I was living east of Syria, I’d be a little scared too – and scared people often shout the loudest.
Mrs Mare, thanks for that. Great post.
I re-read your Hamas quote earlier today. The arguments are just not the same. Like Mrs Mare’s admirable contribution above – quotes from someone involved – the Muslim world is scared stiff of the power, the triumphalism and the greed of the Western world.
and what you are saying is that this makes their constant call for absolute bigotry, racial hatred, murder and ultimately genocide ..excusable.
Same applies to Al queada does it? We have to "understand" why they want to eliminate the world non believers. Its the fault of the wests success is it? How dare we have settled democracies, prosperity, human rights and freedom…
No wonder the far left is finished
Ugly mares post was of no interest for me., when the paranoia of the victim mentality spills over to the stupid suggestion that the US goverment is still enacting genocide on the native amercans then the rest cannot for one moment be taken with any seriousness at all
No, I didn’t expect you would be interested, but others might. If you can be bothered you might care to read his latest to me. I don’t see any victim mentality here:-
These days I’m focusing more on our internal strife between tribal members and political factions more so than what happened with white folks in the past, although its still a concern. Most white folks I know are nice, hard working, and friendly people. Yet people on both sides still toss the race card in.
Recently I’ve looked back to African Americans in the 60’s and 70’s and how some began to challenge their own views on white racism and internal destructive behavior. They looked less to blame and worked towards bettering themselves so there’d be no excuse for public failure. I like that concept.
I look forward to the day when we can move past skin color and look at each other as neighbors instead, as well is identify our own problems without using the blame card. Voting for Barack Obama was and is one of the proudest moments of my entire life. I hope to see more change as the years go by.
I thank you for sharing your views, that what happened never can be forgotten. It’s rare to hear.
…thanks Max for reading and for your earlier comments on this subject which I also read with interest.
Hope you are well – and getting plenty [nudge…
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take care of yourself now
Nice posts Ugly Mare.
I’m a bit surpised at the way the debate has unfolded on here especially how clive is banging on about the far left and Max about the Nazis being far right.
When in actual fact and practice there is no such thing as far left or far right, they are just a figment of the medias imagination. What we really have is totalitarian, democratic and what we now call today establishment politics, where there is a very small difference between the political parties. Sort of a pseudo democracy.
The problem your posts Grimes, is that while you point out what is wrong and why is it a farce you don’t say what should be put in it’s place to fix it. And with Clive .. well where did the US and UK get the 750Bn from that they have just injected into the banks, after the banks just lost £160Trillion. That’s quite a lot of money to burn and print off in a few weeks, or does the exercise require a certain amount of lateral thinking and imagination?
Pivotal’s teaser is getting more than me, Mrs Mare, but thanks for asking.
Let your friend know that at least some people over here are ashamed. I genuinely am.
Clive, after your saddening comment about "victim mentality" in Mrs Mare’s post, I’m done. I just don’t have the vocabulary to respond.
You are echoing my point Dave that there is a "cigarette paper" between the facist right and far left in beliefs. They just choose different enemies.
it is not really incredible that the muslim facists appeal so much to many on the far left. Bigotry and control is rife through both constituencies
Right/left is very outdated. What does the free market right have in common with the facist right? Very little indeed
On the economic point, the "losses" (if they are that number) are a temprary snapshot of a trading position. Far more important is the balance sheet. the goverment funding is not open ended and reserves and boorowing facilities cover these requirements comfrtably. Remeber that in the UK, the goverment is merely holding a stake which would be disposed of in time
the economic point is along one.
lol!!!…Max – you do make me laugh…
well, it can only get better
also, meant to say Max – yeah thanks – I’ll let him know what you said, he’ll appreciate it
Right/left is very outdated.
Agreed.
So why do you always witter on about the "far left" then?
Clive, I think that when you look at the third world and the mentality that belongs to them. There are countries that are secular and non-secular. Extremists don’t just want to kill western pig-dog but also anybody else who isn’t like them. That doesn’t make them fascists in my mind, that makes them hood-winked. Franco was a fascist and he ran Spain for years and years, he didn’t go around exterminating everyone who wasn’t a fascist.
Clive, after your saddening comment about "victim mentality" in Mrs Mare’s post, I’m done. I just don’t have the vocabulary to respond
claiming that the us goverment is enacting genocide agisnt native indians is what then? Obama isnt bloody Custer
clivex wrote:
Right/left is very outdated.Agreed.
So why do you always witter on about the "far left" then?
Seamus milne/livingstone left then. I tend to agree. There are many factions of course. Peoples Front and all that
i agree Dave. could argue all day about what facism is though but its a nice label to antagonise the seamusmilnelivingstoneleft with
islamohoodwinkers then
……….Let your friend know that at least some people over here are ashamed. I genuinely am.
…
hi Max,
If you’re still looking in on this thread, I’ve got something for you that might cheer you up a little and be of interest. I hope so.
I mentioned to my penpal that I sometimes talk on a forum with a chap in England about these things and that you had some strong opinions and sympathies towards Native Americans in general, so here’s what he had to say to you:-
Max hello. I appreciate those sentiments. Although many terrible things happened there is always a brighter day ahead and over the years, each generation has made improvements in relations.
Like I said before, as an American Indian and a minority I’m not out asking for anyone to feel guilty or make them feel bad, but if they are interested to learn the history and events which occurred and understand that although these problems are on-going, reasons are found in causality and fate which brought us to this point, many of which were inevitabilities.
I hold those from the past accountable, but not their ancestors whom I deem innocent because you can’t control the past. Time heals wounds as long as there is mutual respect for one another and understanding of our differences. So I hope that Max can feel a bit better in knowing that his sentiments are appreciated by those on this side of the big pond.
on behalf of
Wahpetowan Dakota Oyate
Lake Traverse S.D.…hope that was o.k. he’s a pleasant young man, only 26.
Don’t feel the need to respond to this though, if you don’t want, but I know you’d appreciate what he had to say.
all the best now,
MargaretMargaret, words fail me – for once.
I’m so pleased you relayed my sentiments to your pen pal and I’m even more pleased to read his lyrical and philosophical magnanimity.
We scarcely deserve it, but what else can we do but link arms and forgive and forget.
Tell your friend that one day, when the white man has poisoned his last river, slaughtered the last whale in the sea, hunted down the remaining silverbacks and cut down the very last tree in the forest, we’ll all meet above, the good people – the Seminole in all of us – and smoke the good weed, do the Ghost Dance and laugh the night away in a party which will last forever.
Thanks Margaret.
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