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I was also pondering on SMS and the sort of horses that he trains. Does he tend to buy youngsters that will be late developers or does he train them in such a way that they take time to realise their full potential?
I think it’s more to do with which stable a big owner chooses to place a particular horse with.
As you’ll know, Prince Khalid has relationships with many trainers both here and in France. Good racing management, Teddy Grimthorpe for Abdhulla isn’t it, is, to my mind, about reading the horse’s breeding and placing each horse with the trainer who’s specialism best suits the horse’s hoped for career path.
Sir Michael has a reputation for unrivalled handling of a horse bred to mature gradually and peak at 4 or 5. Hence he’ll tend to be sent those types. It’s rather a chicken and egg, self fulfilling prophecy. You might look at Workforce, particularly given it’s size, and nod to yourself, yes, that’s why the Abdhulla team sent it to SMS.
In the King George (keeping it on thread) Abdhulla wasn’t wholly disappointed as Harbinger’s sire Dansili stands at his own Juddmonte Farms stud. If I’m right that Workforce could drop back to 1m2f this season the Juddmonte might seem like a good target. Having a Derby winner win the race you sponsor raises the profile of the race and thereby your breeding operation. Which of course was the whole point of sponsoring the race in the first place.
Relative to taking the race with Twice Over, Byword or Zacinto what a greater story Derby winner returns to glory in The Juddmonte would make. If I were the Prince or Teddy that’s the way I’d think of going.
Interesting analysis pedigreeman. I’ve tried to make a point this year of watching how trainers campaign their horses, realising that most of them know far more about their job than I do, and often wonder about the politics of several horses with different owners given an entry for the same race. Find the complexities fascinating. Sadly, much as I value a trainer campaigning older horses, I find it impossible to warm to SMS, but must apologise for going off at a tangent yet again! And it’s not really important if I like him or not…
Whilst Stoute has an unquestionable talent in bringing immature horses to peak at 4-5yrs, few if any of the older horses he has improved to become Group 1 winners fit the profile of a lightly raced Epsom Derby winner.
At the moment I think Workforce has more in common with recent below par animals such as Kris Kin and North Light than horses such as Pilsudski (improved from a lowly 3yo handicapper), Opera House (won his first Group 1 at 5yrs), Ezzoud, Singpsiel and Saddler’s Hall (like Harbingher bagged their first Gp1’s in the high summers of their 4yo campaigns).
Also, I think the placing of certain horses with a certain trainer has as much to do with the trainer’s knowledge of the pedigree as much as a certain trainer being "good with older horses". Stoute trained Opera House’s dam Colorspin. He also trained Pilsudski’s 1/2 sisters Glowing Ardour and Red Cotton. In addition he trained Singspiel’s half siblings Rahy, Haymarket and Morn of Song.
You cannot say Lord Grimthorpe was giving Henry Cecil certain types 5 or 6 years ago when that trainer was completely in the doldrums – ironically Cecil himself had trained Clepsydra the dam of Passage of Time, the filly who along with Light Shift turned the tide for Warren Place.
I think it is more a case of the best 2-y-o’s go to the trainer in the best form. Now it is Roger Charlton’s turn to be sent the lesser lights from Juddmonte Farms and as we recently saw in the RP his historic Beckhampton yard is struggling to make ends meet.
Equally it has been a while since John Gosden has had a really decent animal for the Prince.
I said it before and i will say it again. Work got too hasrd a race in the Derby and not long enough break after it.
Seems like only last week people would not hear of Workforce being defeated.Where have all the cheer leaders gone?I was not surprised to see him running like a horse with the bug. Stay up with the pace until the question is asked then back peddling so fast he is immediately out of the race.Scrub that race and wait until next year.For the most part ignore SMS horses until they all start winning.
I was a Workforce cheer leader. I honestly could not believe how poor his run was at Ascot, and I am doubly amazed at how brilliant a performance Harbinger put up. To beat two Derby winners out of sight like that, in record time, is quite astonishing. I’m still trying to take it in. According to Olivier Peslier, Harbinger had more in the tank, which means he could have won by more had he so wished.
I’m sure Willie Carson said the performance was Ribot-like, rather than comparing the Harbinger to that great horse.
Is Harbinger a certainty to win the Arc. Horse racing is another funny old game, so the answer is probably not.
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I just cannot believe the amount of ink spilt to explain the running of the super horse Workforce. The bottom line is that Moore rode the hell out of him coming home in the Derby.(nobody wanted to talk about that)Like the lad lost the run of himself or something. Can you imagine Kinane doing a stupid thing like that? It was only the horse’s third race and around that track he should have been taken care of.Now after such a hard race to ask him to take on the 4yo’s was a bridge too far.Even Ballydoyle had that figured out and were eager to take him on.End of story. He will be back.
Is Harbinger a certainty to win the Arc. Horse racing is another funny old game, so the answer is probably not.
He’s no certainty H, question is, at this point in time he’s
2/1
; does he have a better or worse than
33%
chance of winning the Arc?
If yes, back it.
If not, lay it.Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
I was also pondering on SMS and the sort of horses that he trains. Does he tend to buy youngsters that will be late developers or does he train them in such a way that they take time to realise their full potential?
It actually a complete falacy Moe.
As much as it may surprise some people Sir Michael has won 2-1000 Guineas, 5-2,000, 5-Derbys and 5-King George’s (a race that is almost always won by an older horse these days) and he has never won the Arc De Triomphe.
Sir Michael is sent all types of horse as his record shows but he gets this older horse rep for a reason. He will advise his owners to keep certain horses in training if he thinks there is potential there to increase shed value. If he had Sea the Stars he would have gone straight to stud as he did with John Oxx.
Take Conduit for example is some stud had offered a small owner a few million after he won the St leger he have sold him in a flash….as it was SMS and his owner could afford to set out a campaign aimed soley at increasing his shed value.
This good with older horses rep isn’t exclusive to Sir Michael. Take a look at Aiden O’Brien record with older horses and you’ll find in the big classics he has more success on average with his older horses than Sir Michael having won 3 King George’s (2 with older horse) and an Arc already.
In conclusion I think it has to be said we may well have witnessed one of the worst Derby’s in it’s history. Just one of those races where nothing else goes right for anything else but yourself.
In conclusion I think it has to be said we may well have witnessed one of the worst Derby’s in it’s history.
Maybe a slight exaggeration – is it worse for instance than Shaamit, or High Rise, Kris Kin or Snow Knight for instance?
However I think you have a point – the past two Saturdays, and this afternoon at deauville strongly suggest this year’s crop of 3-y-o’s is considerably inferior to the older generations.
The bizarre thing with Epsom is the lightening quick time – has that simply bottomed Workforce, or do we again have to arrive at the conclusion that race times in Europe can be extremely misleading because of the style or racing – so many races are run at false paces, often at crawls, and so comparing times is fraguht with danger – whereas in the USA times can be relied upon as a very reliable yardstick with which to measure a horse’s ability.
Brough Scott campaigned long and hard (to know avail) for published sectional times – at least then we could measure an animal’s speed over short distances.
The fact is that Workforce was going away at the end of the Derby so he stayed that day.Now Lester (9Derby winners)claimed that a 10 furlong horse would get the Derby trip because of the nature of the track. So does he stay or not? Only time will tell.Someplace else I explained that a not well horse will start to backpedal as soon as the pressure is put on and I believe that that is what happened with Workforce.He will be back.
Check this out "Maybe he wasn’t ready to be trained hard for two big races, he’s a big fellow," Stoute said. "It was a scintillating performance at Epsom and he had a hard race. We felt we had him back in form before the King George, but he was well below par there." Sir MS.August10th INDEPENDENT.I said it before and I will say it again…………..Oh forget it.
Hi All
Just picked up on this thread as late as it is and as a nephew of Willie Burke i would like to speak in his defence if i may as regards the 1964 King George.Santa Claus was beaten by a combination of a small field of four runners , the short straight at Ascot but more importantly the firm ground that prevailed on the day. Bill Pyers in fairness rode an intelligent race on Nasram.Neither Lester Piggott or Scobie Breasley would have won on him as Santa Claus in racing parlance would simply not let himself down on the ground.Workforce showed that fancied horses can get beaten in the King George but went on to win the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe.Santa Claus incidentally just got touched off by a head in the same race(ridden by Jimmy Lindley!) so all great racehorses have their off day.I know for a fact that the trainer of Santa Claus was annoyed with Scobie Breasley for only winning by a head in the English Derby so thats where my Uncle Willie Burke stepped in in the Irish Derby in 1964 and won by a cosy 3-4 lengths and also had Lester Piggott behind!!!.
Many thanks,
Paul Burke- Total Posts 17716
Santa Clause was my first Derby winner so you tend not to forget Scobie won by a very comfortable length not by a head. Indiana was 2nd damned if I can remember the 3rd (dante something I think) but it’s easy to remember Billy Fury who was a well known pop star in the 60’s and his horse Anselmo finshed 4th which was slipped into a movie called "I gotta a horse"
Willie Burke rode him in his Irish races and won the Irish 2000 guineas on him but was Scobie who knew Epsom a lot better took the mount in the Derby. The mount was given back to Willie Burke who won on him again in the Irish Derby then they employed another big name of the time, Jimmy Lindley to ride him in the Arc.
Most likley these were demands put on the trainer by the owner which is most often the case. Sincerly doubt the trainer was angry at Scobie RIP he gave Santa Clause a brilliant ride that day.
- Total Posts 17716
I was a Workforce cheer leader. I honestly could not believe how poor his run was at Ascot, and I am doubly amazed at how brilliant a performance Harbinger put up. To beat two Derby winners out of sight like that, in record time, is quite astonishing. I’m still trying to take it in. According to Olivier Peslier, Harbinger had more in the tank, which means he could have won by more had he so wished.
I’m sure Willie Carson said the performance was Ribot-like, rather than comparing the Harbinger to that great horse.
Is Harbinger a certainty to win the Arc. Horse racing is another funny old game, so the answer is probably not.
Was wonering what your chain of thought is now?
It is blatantly obvious Workforce was not himself that day so what exactly did Harbinger beat?
The Irish Derby form isn’t worth a bucket of sh1it. Cape Blanco was given a brilliant ride to get the trip and would have lost but for that.
Youmzain’s peformance in the Arc shows he is only a shadow of his former self and in nay of his other runs he’s about as unreliable as you could ever hope to find.
Ryan Moore without hesitation went for Workforce ahead of Harbinger.
Workforce bounced back and Harbinger’s form has taken a hammering.
It is blatantly obvious Cape Blanco doesn’t truly stay 1m4f as was AOB’s concern before the Arc. Youmazin you would need binoculars to fin in the Arc and over and above that Duncan who Harbinger beat prior to the King George was also miles behind in the Arc.
Harbinger was a nice horse like Dream Ahead is a nice horse but he beat nothing like Dream Ahead did.
how many times have we seen performances like theors only to find out later they are nowhere near as good as they looked on that day when everything was in their favour?
If he deserves to be rated alongside Sea the Stars for beating anon stayer and a complete monkey I’m Johnathen Routh and yiour on Candid Camera
Absolute nonsense of a rating and should be chopped down to about 132.
SMS and connections must be laughing all the way to the bank if the breeders fall for that one.
Fist, I do agree that Cape Blanco is not a top class mile and a half horse; he’s better at 10f.
Workforce was clearly not right at Ascot; his 140 Timeform rating seems generously high, but then I also think the same about Shergar’s.
That said, I cannot find much fault with Harbinger’s King George performance, which was really quite outstanding on the day. The time of the race would back that up – albeit that others probably under performed.
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