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Hi, I am new on here – in another thread you will see my love of historical colours has led me here.
But for what its worth I though I would add to this debate.
I think that Coolmore/Ballydoyle are totally, 100% about putting the stud career first – nothing wrong with that, Magnier runs a tight and focused ship and you only have to recall the near disaster of classic Thoroughbreds to recall he is only too aware that failure can follow succes rather quickly in the breeding world, so ensuring you get your stock to win the right races is imperative in ensuring the financial ball keeps rolling.
It seems in the case of Stoute he has owners more willing to tread the traditional path – Conduit in the Leger for instances proving himself later to have been well up to winning over shorter (10 f) in most normal years, and now this year Workforce going straight to Ascot without much debate, or dwelling on alternative 12f strategies. I suspect if Cecil were to handle a genuinely top class 3-y-o colt again, he too would go the traditional route in search of historical rather than financial/stud prestige. After all, is it not the case that whatever a horse has won becomes fairly irrelevant once he has seen a crop or two of his progeny race – from then it becomes the relative racecourse performance of his progeny rather than himself that matters. Lets say, god forbid, Sea The Stars proves a failure at stud – we would all rue the missed opportunity to deliver a triple crown for the first time in 40 years and possibly the last chance in many of our lifetimes.
Personally, as a traditionalist I like to see the KG, Eclipse and Arc supported by the top horses, and I always recall 1986/87 when Dancing Brave and Reference both took in KG and Eclipse following Epsom on the way to Longchamp. To me it would be nice if all the horses followed similar paths so then we could have a reasonable chance to compare the generations. I think most people agree Sea The Stars would have won the KG doing handstands, and for me winning at York added little to his prestige or value once he had bagged an Eclipse. To my mind he would also have won a woefully weak St Leger, and should have gone there not Leopardstown – KG to St Leger is 7 weeks, then a 3 week gap to the Arc – a programme which would have seen him become an immortal was opposed to a great horse who ammassed a unique but historically weak collection of Group 1s – the weakness being that two of the wins came in races which were inuagurated as recently as 1972 and 1976. Hardly a rich historical backdrop, if compared with the KG and Leger.
Yes I know I am a traditionalist, but I cannot help but think that sort of thing might do more to capture the imagination of potential "newbies" to racing than some of this RFC stuff I am reading.
- Total Posts 170
Great post
The big question is whether Moore will take the ride on Harbinger or Workforce.
I will also be hoping that Dettori rides Rewilding rather than one of the Suroor horses, but I have a feeling he will be on Cutlass Bay.
For me the big question is how much will Profound Beauty’s price be slashed after she wins on Saturday? I firmly believe the others are destined for no more than supporting roles.
Sir Michael Stoute, genius trainer that he is, has really brought Harbinger along beautifully as a 4yr.old. The colt has done nothing wrong to this point in 2010. Having run rough shod over the Surprise Stakes field at Newbury, the Ormonde Stakes field at Chester, and now the Hardwicke Stakes field at Ascot. I think it’s likely that Stoute will enter both Harbinger and Workforce in the 2010 King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes. Which, IMO, makes for a much tougher decision this year for Ryan Moore, choosing whether to ride Harbinger or Workforce, than he had in 2009 having to choose between Conduit, Tartan Bearer, and Ask. That’s just my opinion.
Sir Michael Stoute, genius trainer that he is, has really brought Harbinger along beautifully as a 4yr.old. The colt has done nothing wrong to this point in 2010. Having run rough shod over the Surprise Stakes field at Newbury, the Ormonde Stakes field at Chester, and now the Hardwicke Stakes field at Ascot. I think it’s likely that Stoute will enter both Harbinger and Workforce in the 2010 King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes. Which, IMO, makes for a much tougher decision this year for Ryan Moore, choosing whether to ride Harbinger or Workforce, than he had in 2009 having to choose between Conduit, Tartan Bearer, and Ask. That’s just my opinion.
I too thought Harbinger (great colt, agreed) was the one for The KG until I compared his win over Age Of Aquarius to Profound Beauty’s vicory over the same horse, I suggest you check both races before having a bet.
CheltenhamSpecialist
23 Jun 2010, 19:38
by CheltenhamSpecialist on 23 Jun 2010, 19:38
For me the big question is how much will Profound Beauty’s price be slashed after she wins on Saturday? I firmly believe the others are destined for no more than supporting roles.Interesting I was told, by someone who should know, to get on today and before today’s race at 16-1.
So I’ve had a little ratio flutter.
Ps. He also thinks England will beat Germany so he’s not always right!Ivanjica,A bit unfair perhaps to the main supporter of the Leger-Coolmore who have been faithful to the race for years even going so far as to give a winning ride to Frankie when their own staff were busy with the Irish Champion stakes.I can’t remember the last time they had no runner in it.So it is not all about the stud stuff.Also the KG can hardly be looked on as part of the old tradition, coming into being circa 1950. Nowadays the traditional classic distance is more like 10 furlongs and the KG was invented for the older horses to have a race before the Arc and during the summer.Even though the French would not hear of mid summer racing.If you read the snide remarks about Yeats and NH sires you would not want your classic horse to be subject to St. Leger snide.Times move on and so does racing. You prove yourself over a mile and two and do what you like after that
Didn’t look at the form for yesterday’s race.
I allowed myself to be taken in by Profound’s Beauty’s reputation.
Profound Beauty’s best PR is 112. She was on the same weight as Tactic because she was carrying a penalty. Tactic’s RPRs for his past two races were 112 and 115. Looks like he ought to have been favourite instead.
Anyway, with her 3 lb sex allowance for the King George, that would bring her up to 115, with no particular reason to expect much improvement on that.
Dermot prepares horses for handicaps. The Beauty is being prepared for the Melbourne Cup. Ignore everything else.
Daryakana for me the right handed track is what this horse needs and to be played late not like what they did today.
CheltenhamSpecialist
23 Jun 2010, 19:38
by CheltenhamSpecialist on 23 Jun 2010, 19:38
For me the big question is how much will Profound Beauty’s price be slashed after she wins on Saturday? I firmly believe the others are destined for no more than supporting roles.Interesting I was told, by someone who should know, to get on today and before today’s race at 16-1.
So I’ve had a little ratio flutter.
Ps. He also thinks England will beat Germany so he’s not always right!
Well the good news was Betfair going £49k at 9/4 on Germany winning – had some of that. Whoever told England to play in faded red should be shot. Far too hard to spot and didn’t it show.
Profound Beauty’s race was clearly a warm up. Not a big prize and not given a hard race – bigger fish to fry. I shall watch with interest.
Well the good news was Betfair going £49k at 9/4 on Germany winning – had some of that. Whoever told England to play in faded red should be shot. Far too hard to spot and didn’t it show.
Profound Beauty’s race was clearly a warm up. Not a big prize and not given a hard race – bigger fish to fry. I shall watch with interest.
I don’t bet on football but Mrs CS backed Germany to win outright at 8s after the first round of group matches, it’s looking a fairly good shout right now, I fancy Uraugay to be the danger but what do I know?
Re Profound Beauty The mare hated the firm ground and Pat Smullen was very easy on her, I did lose a couple of hundred on her but easy come easy go and I got nearly all of it back on Cape Blanco yesterday.
It hasn’t shaken my belief that only Harbinger stands between her and King George glory. I firmly believe the race will go to an older horse, this years crop of three year olds (bar a couple from France) look very ordinary which might explain the esteem that St Nicholas Abbey was held in, the best of a poor bunch of two year olds last season IMOHi CheltenhamSpecialist
As you say not given a hard race. I didn’t back her on Saturday, for that race, and not surprised to see Tactic win (local horse 1.6f). I see we still have 16-1 so no harm done yet! I will get an update from my guy in the next few days and if there is anything interesting will let you know.
Not sure about Germany winning the whole tournament, but good luck. The only team I can watch for more than a few minutes is Brazil (in a serious match). Getting back to the England strip I was talking to a friend who used to coach football and he reminded me of a game where Man U apparently wore a terrible grey outfit. They were 3-0 down at half time so changed the strip for the second half!
Found this:-
, 16 April 1996
Manchester United’s grey football kit yesterday became a collector’s item as the "strip they couldn’t see" was consigned to the dustbin after less than a season.
The outfit, which adorned the likes of Cantona and Giggs on United’s appearances away from their home ground of Old Trafford, was blamed for a string of disappointing results and will be replaced by an all-white version.
United are on the verge of winning the Premiership title – the biggest prize in football – despite having lost four and drawn one of the five games in which the unlucky, two-tone design had been worn.
The last straw came on Saturday at Southampton when, after going in three goals down at half-time, the United manager, Alex Ferguson, ordered a switch to the team’s blue and white third kit. The changed worked, but only partially as United lost 3-1.
"The players couldn’t pick each other out," Ferguson said. "They said it was difficult to see their team-mates at distance when they lifted their heads.
Cheltenham,you are a knowledgable chap,most of the time but to suggest Profound Beauty has a chance of winning this years King George is like saying England had a chance of winning the World Cup! No Chance!
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