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As I’ve said many times, I’m a big Kauto fan and I’ve got no problem with running him at Aintree but what happened to the horse that won a Betfair Chase by 18L on the bit and then cantered clear of Voy Por Ustedes in a Tingle Creek just a few weeks later?
He’s still very good and as long as he stays sound he’ll win plenty more races/loads of prize money but for whatever reason, I have a feeling that he just isn’t the same horse. How has he gone from winning two Tingle Creek’s to coming off the bridle in the middle of 2m4f – 3m contests in the space of a year? Is it temprament?
I thought the Aintree race was very similar to the Betfair Chase at Haydock and Exotic Dancer would have caught him there in exactly the same fashion if that was over a furlong further like the Totesport Bowl.
Despite losing the GC, I’m happy with his season overall – 3 wins (all Grade 1’s) & 3 seconds) and I’m relieved that he’s made it through all the battles but I can’t say I’m too confident about the future…
Thats basically all i was saying…totally agree.
I just say things as i see them.
Right, reading some comments I has really frustrated me.
The problem with people today is they all jump on the band wagon waay too soon. Masterminded wins the CC and suddenly he is the next Arkle, now he has proved he is no better than Kauto was, a true champion will win over any distance. He is a good horse, no doubt but why must everyone say Kauto Star is finished and he has fell out of love with the game??
A horse that falls out of love with the game doesn’t come second in the gold cup, or loose to Our Vic by a nose, they are either pulled up or nowhere. And how can you say he has lost his speed, the horse shot 7 or 8 lengths clear in a couple of strides before clattering into the second last at Aintree.
He has been beaten by what is supposed to be a beast of an animal in Denman and only lost marginally to one of the most improved horses this year.
I have no reason to explain all of this too many runs business because all horses are different, I couldn’t see everyone jumping on Denman’s back if he would have been beaten at Aintree, it would be , oh but hes a big horse his races take a lot out of him, this race has came too soon!.
Why does everyone doubt a champion when they show the slightest sign of weakness?? His jumping has never been foot perfect and I always remember ruby saying he only makes mistakes when he is tanking along, not only that most horses would have fell at that fence! and not only did kauto stay up he had won the race until the very last stride on pure guts
Please do not write off the champion so easily, and I hope this is the making of him, as a champion is not a horse who is overprotected and never looses, a champion is a horse that will not shirk anyones challenge and will run against the best, get beat and come back for another effort and win.
I cant imagine many people backing Denman if he were to run in the KG against kauto and neither can I imagine him even entering the race.. because connections know he doesnt have a chance!
Long live King Kauto!!!
He will be back next year, and he who laughs last…
RANT OVER
I agree with you Young Mick.
Kauto Star was beaten fairly and squarely at Cheltenham by a horse that was far better suited to the test and lets be honest a hell of a horse at that.
I then had reservations about him going to Aintree as Kauto had an exceptionally hard race at Cheltenham, the hardest race I’ve ever seen him have and Aintree came too quickly for Kauto to possibly be 100% (IMO). I shared this opinion before that race so this isn’t aftertiming.
Yes he ran a bit below his best at Aintree but he was always likely to as Cheltenham must’ve taken an edge off him. He still ran a fantastic race and only just got touched off by Our Vic who at his best is a very, very good horse in his own right.
Regressing Kauto? I really don’t think so for a second. Give him a break, let him come back as a fresh horse next season and watch him put them all in their place Denman included if he ever meets him over three miles which is doubtful admittedly.
Basically Mick people who start taking about 8 year old horses in the prime of their lives being finished after a couple of below par races are total idiots.
Had it been against inferior opponents you could understand it. Kauto was beaten by Denman fair and square on the day simply because he never travelled well nor jumped well. Had he travelled in his normal manner and jumped like he did in the King George he would have beaten Denman out of sight. However he never and Denman rn right up to form and deserved to win.
The truth remains Denman won by a diminishing 7 lengths and was flat to the boards……..had he been challenged he would have found nothing as the horse wins his races out in the country and one can see by simply looking at all his races his only weak point is his lack of acceleration.
The problem with Kauto trying to beat Denman he just can’t afford to make mistakes as Denman is highly unlikely to be stopping even if he does hit a couple.
You say great horses should be able to win at any distance…..Sorry Mick that’s just about as silly a staement as anyone has ever made on here.
Denman is a great chaser one of the best I have seen in along time but put him round 2m6 to 3m round Kempton against Kauto Star he would be beaten so far you would think he wasn’t the same horse…….He needs a galloping track to be seen at his best and distance…..then he has a huge advatage over any horse in the country.
Master Minded………it was there for all to see………made to look ordinary in France because he simply didn’t stay PN and Ruby made the Mistake of thinking he was perhaps not mature enough back then. He’s won the QMCC in such a fast time and so easily we should have all been at least a bit suspicious of what was to come.
Master Minded could well be the Next Arkle just at a different distance.
Before we can say that he is or is not he has to been seen to beat the likes of Tidal Bay or any other up and comg chaser in the same fashion as he did VPU.
Running Master Minded over 2m4f proved to be no different than takin the fastest 5 furlong horse in the country and putting him in the 2000 guneas…..he would be made to look ordinary in the same way MM was.
But hey let them knock Kauto all they want…….I wouldn’t mind around 5/2 3/1 for the King George again 2 singles and a double for the Gold Cup……he’ll win the KG again unless his legs fall off which would make it a winning bet and I would be very happy with a bundle going on to him at around 16/1-20/1 for the double
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Just my opinion, but neither of Kauto Star’s last 2 races were his true form, and there is a genuine worry that he may never be the same horse again?
Had he be beaten off by Denman in the closing stages, one could accept the distance was the problem, but to be left for dead a mile from home – by any horse – is just not his form or his style.
Likewise his jumping, which has never been as poor, particularly in the earlier stages, and no horse has previously outjumped him over a series of fences, let alone the likes of Neptune Collonges and Halcon Genelardais.
His defeat by Our Vic wasn’t totally unexpected given his GC disappointment, but to fold like he did against a horse he had recently toyed with wasn’t ‘ a bit below his best’ but at least a stone, in my view.
The most worrying thing about it all is his stables apparent lack of concern, seemingly accepting the horse is good enough to win more races while only firing on 3 cylinders, and could well run him again before the season’s end, for a sum that is paltry compared to what the horse has already garnered for them.It’s amazing how short-sighted peeps can be after 2 performances.
KS ran a better race when 2nd in the Gold Cup then when he won imo.
Yes, his jumping has been exposed again somewhat, but I fully believe he will win top races next season. On good, good to fast ground he would have a chance of beating Denman in 2009 Gold Cup, or at least being a lot closer. Will Denman win Tingle Creek’s and King George’s?
Old Vic was iron-willed, when I thought, like many, that he would be weak-willed at Aintree.
KS was the best horse on the day but shite tactics and jumping beat him.
But then you have to jump reasonably well to win, so..
KS WILL win 2009 King GEROGE.
Zip
I fail to see how people can suggest that KS ran to a higher level of form in the most recent Gold Cup than the previous one – unless they consider Neptune Collonges to have improved out of sight (after 15 chase runs) or that Denman is genuinely worthy of his exalted (and I’d say unwarranted) official rating.
It seems quite clear to me that KS failed to run up to the best of his form in the Gold Cup. That might be due to the going, the track or the trip – in any event, it is largely immaterial, he simply failed to run to the best of his possible form, though this fact seems to be lost on the official handicapper, as well as numerous ‘pros’, who have chosen to allot Denman a mark higher than anything ever achieved by Kauto Star.
It is a patent nonsense.
Despite my arguing against it for many a year, I can well understand those that suggest that "the entire Jumps season is only geared around Cheltenham". If Phil Smith and those we consider "professional" handicappers routinely wet their communal drawers over Cheltenham performances, to the detriment of every other scrap of form in the book, then it does indeed begin to look like every other race in the calendar is but a mere sideshow.
It’s a bally fecking mockery.
PS. Zippy, KS will also pi*sup in the 2008 King George!
Was the Gold Cup not run in a quicker time this year? And was it not also run quicker than the foxhunters by a greater margin than last year?
Ground in 2008 was also slower than last year?
I do think neptunes ran better. Although I would say Denman may have been over-rated by a few pounds.
Even if KS had jumped better, he would not have beaten Denman. Personally, I am certain of that. I know some peeps have said Denman was leg weary at the line…I felt he had more in the tank.
Ok – 2008 King George!
You got me kid!
Zip
One thing I won’t be doing, Zip is trying to gret an angle on the Gold Cup performances, via the times of the respective Foxhunters.
The 2007 Gold Cup time was immaterial, imo. It was run in a different manner, and KS put that race to bed in a matter of strides, possibly due to the slower pace, possibly not – I think the jury is still out on that, to be honest. If KS had jumped/travelled better this year (and I was reasonably certain after about 5 fences that he wasn’t going to win) then I think it’s entirely possible that he would have beaten Denman. But if my auntie had a co*ck, she’d be my uncle.
Either way, Denman looked like a horse that was coming to the end of his stamina to me, and the performance was almost certainly not that of the kind of stout stayer many would have thought he was beforehand (though I concede this may have been partly due to the ground).
I find it a little hard to see how Paul Nicholls can say after the gold cup that Denman is finished for the season yet poor old Kauto Star has to carry on to Aintree and is still entered up for other races.
Yes I have heard the arguments about not wrapping up horses up in cotton wool and that KS didnt leave his race behind at Cheltenham when he ran at Aintree but why should Denman be given a break and not KS ?
There are races that Denman could have been entered up for and he has had nowhere near the amount of races that KS has had over the years so what is the factor that says Denman is exempt from further duties ?
I know that it would never be admitted by the trainer but my own view is simply that Denmans co-owner Paul Barber is more than happy to respect the long term interests of Denman than that of Kauto Stars owner.Isn’t it just that Aintree, being a speed course, plays more to Kauto Star’s strengths than Denman’s?
Like most I hope that Kauto is not run again this season and is put away for a well deserved rest.
As for next season I’d love to see Denman line up against Kauto in the King George. However, I feel Denman will be kept to races that suit his style of running. He obviously lacks the versatility/class of Kauto but he’s a monster at 3m+ so why risk him in races that simply don’t suit.
I certainly wouldn’t rule out Kauto for the 2009 Gold Cup but Denman is going to be very hard to beat at that distance. However, if any horse will scalp Denman on his preferred conditions it’s going to be Kauto.
KS would have every chance of turning Denman over if he’s at peak form and he gets the decent ground he requires. The question is will he get that ground? It seems like courses are intent on artificially changing the going by watering. Certainly you need the ground to be safe, but sometimes they seem to end up with dead ground using this policy. Roll on March 2009!
Was the Gold Cup not run in a quicker time this year? And was it not also run quicker than the foxhunters by a greater margin than last year?
Ground in 2008 was also slower than last year?
I do think neptunes ran better. Although I would say Denman may have been over-rated by a few pounds.
Even if KS had jumped better, he would not have beaten Denman. Personally, I am certain of that. I know some peeps have said Denman was leg weary at the line…I felt he had more in the tank.
Ok – 2008 King George!
You got me kid!
Zip
Zippy you’re toying with figures and missing the point completely.
Kauto Star was never traveling in the race in his normal manner he’s hardly jumped a twig and you think he ran a better race than he did when he won it…………I think you have got Denmanitis my friend.
You must think Ruby Walsh is a complete and utter idiot and a liar if you believe what you are saying or you simply can’t see the wood for the trees.
The man has said repeatedly in interviews they were not going that fast, yet he was in trouble passing the stands and felt Kauto just wasn’t travelling like normal. He’s never jumped so bad in his life and for the first time in his life he has come of the bridle more than a mile from home.
That’s the truth of the matter……….unless you are blind or just don’t want to face up to the facts.
Denman is a very good horse but make no mistake he has along way to go before he reaches the heights that Kauto has.
Going into the race the biggest concern about Denman was that he had beat nothing and coming out of the race you could say the same. All this about Neptune Collonges being an improved animal is absolute BS…..BS to the extent if he met Kauto Star tomorrow getting 3lbs he would be beaten a fence.
Horses win races by 7 lengths every day of the week and a week later they reverse the form……….
People are worried that Kauto may be finished after he runs two races below form……….well that amazes me…..Denman beat him because he ran well below his best and Our Vic beat him because PN stuck his stupid nose in where it doesn’t belong……….what he was thinking when he told Ruby to take it up is beyond me………Kauto has the best turn of foot for a chaser I have ever seen and he uses it up early in the race taking on a confirmed front runner like OV…….the man lost the plot completely and Kauto almost still won.
Personally I don’t think Kauto wasn’t 100% himself at Ascot compared to Kempton and he went downhill from there…….whatever is ailing him I have no idea but with a long rest hopefully it will sort itself out and he’ll be back t his best for next year.
Was the Gold Cup not run in a quicker time this year? And was it not also run quicker than the foxhunters by a greater margin than last year?
Ground in 2008 was also slower than last year?
I do think neptunes ran better. Although I would say Denman may have been over-rated by a few pounds.
Even if KS had jumped better, he would not have beaten Denman. Personally, I am certain of that. I know some peeps have said Denman was leg weary at the line…I felt he had more in the tank.
Ok – 2008 King George!
You got me kid!
Zip
Zippy you’re toying with figures and missing the point completely.
Kauto Star was never traveling in the race in his normal manner he’s hardly jumped a twig and you think he ran a better race than he did when he won it…………I think you have got Denmanitis my friend.
You must think Ruby Walsh is a complete and utter idiot and a liar if you believe what you are saying or you simply can’t see the wood for the trees.
The man has said repeatedly in interviews they were not going that fast, yet he was in trouble passing the stands and felt Kauto just wasn’t travelling like normal. He’s never jumped so bad in his life and for the first time in his life he has come of the bridle more than a mile from home.
That’s the truth of the matter……….unless you are blind or just don’t want to face up to the facts.
Denman is a very good horse but make no mistake he has along way to go before he reaches the heights that Kauto has.
Going into the race the biggest concern about Denman was that he had beat nothing and coming out of the race you could say the same. All this about Neptune Collonges being an improved animal is absolute BS…..BS to the extent if he met Kauto Star tomorrow getting 3lbs he would be beaten a fence.
Horses win races by 7 lengths every day of the week and a week later they reverse the form……….
People are worried that Kauto may be finished after he runs two races below form……….well that amazes me…..Denman beat him because he ran well below his best and Our Vic beat him because PN stuck his stupid nose in where it doesn’t belong……….what he was thinking when he told Ruby to take it up is beyond me………Kauto has the best turn of foot for a chaser I have ever seen and he uses it up early in the race taking on a confirmed front runner like OV…….the man lost the plot completely and Kauto almost still won.
Personally I don’t think Kauto wasn’t 100% himself at Ascot compared to Kempton and he went downhill from there…….whatever is ailing him I have no idea but with a long rest hopefully it will sort itself out and he’ll be back t his best for next year.
FIST OR SHOULD I REFER TO YOU AS SIR … not… i agree every1 has an poinion but yours is the same eachtime however you repeatedly solagging of our horse neptune is beginning to fork me off, so for god sake change the record…………………….
I stick with my opinion Fist – The Gold Cup was a better race this year and KS simply was not good enough. The 2009 Gold Cup will be the only way to prove this (for some), provided everyone turns up fit and well.
You can make excuses all day long.
Zip
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