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Andy, as you know, they charge exorbitant amounts of money here to watch these big races and seeing the horses is a good portion of the admission fee. Some horsey types go to see the horses exclusively.
The type of well bred, expensive horses Coolmore race are always going to be of interest to the racing public over here and we’re trying to offer an inclusive experience for the racegoer. I’d want to see them – I’d make an effort to do so.
However, I do see your earlier point. Without the Irish trainers, last years race would have been a total embarrassment. I get the impression our trainers have lost interest in the Derby – Teddy Grimthorpe’s comments anyone? – but thats for another thread.
I definitely agree with Happy on this one and am surprised that few forumites seem aware of the advantage to be had for punters by factoring in these ‘malpractices’ in determining when to bet or not.
If, when reading form, you include ‘slowly away’ and ‘missed the break’ as positives it can often lead to comfortable winners at generous odds.
I can think of quite a few nice touches I used to have on Mark Prescott’s second time out runners.
One of the joys of betting is being able to predict the dangers/mishaps/fiddles and either refraining from having a bet or knowing when the time is right to go with your intuition.
Far from condemning the fiddlers we should be applauding them for making racing that more interesting and potentially rewarding.
If people want racing free of corruption, shocks and surprises then perhaps they’d be as well betting at the likes of Sprint Valley or Steepledowns where every jockey, horse and trainer is drawn from the ‘school of propriety’.
KOr they could, like my wife, resort to pulling the arm of the slot machine.No fiddle there.
Unfortunately your average punter does not get within a mile of the horses at Epsom and all Aidans horses will be already familiar to the punters.
All people who have a grandstand ticket or better have access to the paddock to see the runners prior to the Derby.
It is also unlikely that many will have seen any of Aidan’s runners before at first hand.
jose1993
I totally agree regarding a life ban for proven corruption, but not for a poor ride.
Silvoir
You replied by detailing
…Guide to Penalties on page 7 entitled "Asking for an effort or making some other permissible manoeuvre too late as a result of serious misjudgement or inattention"
This would seem to concentrate more on the finishing end of a race, rather than the start.
To continue with the example given, the rider took a tug and ended up 6 lengths behind the last horse. This might be a decision that went wrong, but the racing public either lost money or had the spectacle of the race spoilt.
Many will think the race was fixed.
If an enquiry was announced, followed by a short ban, do you not think this would improve the image of racing?
You may end up with numerous bans to begin with, but this might concentrate a few minds, and racing enthusiasts would know you were aware and prepared to improve the quality of riding and the training of horses.And how much may I ask do grandstand or better tickets cost? Is it a privilege or a right to see the horses in the ring? I only ask because as you probably know at Santa Anita everyone has access to the horses in the saddling enclosure and in the ring at no extra cost.Just the 12$ to get in for the BC! By the time getting into the ring comes around the people have been eying the horses for ten minutes at least at the saddling area.To popularize the sport stop and think,why not saddle and mount the horses before the grandstand if necessary where everyone could see them? In my opinion all the fuss about being late into the ring is part of the snobbery of English racing where only the rich can see what is going on in the ring.The ring area at Epsom serves to separate the haves from the have nots.
Cormack do you realize how much a grand stand ticket costs to see the horses in the ring? If the jockey club wants everyone to see the horses they should saddle them out on the course at Epsom and not charge for the "privilege".It is a lot of Ascot bull where the average racegoer does not see anything and not a word about it.
At Ellerslie in Auckland (and presumably in all NZ racecourses), each race on the racecard has the precise time by which horses must be in the parade ring, and when they are to leave it. If you miss the appointed times without a very good reason, punishments are routinely handed out.
It seemed to work pretty well, and all the races started within a couple of minutes of the advertised time.
Why can’t this be enforced here?
Is it about starting on time or about everyone seeing all the horses? How does starting on time make it more fun for the paying customers? That is the question.In the states the starting time is sometimes dictated by the line at the tote window. No line, start on time. Big line wait until all the bets are in.But here the many offices are not the issue.Plus here many don’t bother to go see the horses.Pity really.
If the horses are guaranteed to be the parade ring at a time specified on the racecard, and leave at a specified time, you are then able to see
all
the horses in the paddock for at least five minutes (or whatever the time frame is), and not have to hang around while the trainers faff about.
It then follows that all the horses are likely to arrive at the start early enough for the race to be started on time .
This seems to me to be a Good Thing, enjoyment-wise.
Hi Venusian;
If only life was that simple. How often have we seen horses refuse to enter the gate like in the BC.Delaying the starting time for 10 minutes and the sky did not fall.How often have we seen horses running away on their way to the gate.Again at Epsom I repeat the price of the ticket to the ring is out of most punters reach,and a really good big screen will ensure that we don’t miss anything. While i still support the idea of saddling in front of the stands. Most people will see something that way not just the swanky hats of the wealthy women if you can afford to get near the Derby ring at all.The only reason I enter this discussion and focus on Epsom is because such uproar by the local press because Aidan had at least six horses entered in the Derby (five finished in the first six) and was not on time with all of them.Most other trainers did not even bother to enter a horse in the race.There would have been no derby last year without Aidan and what was the response?Change the rules to penalize him.!!!!!!!
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There you go again, Silvoir!
Not a word about the iffy rides that are taking place daily, but one sniff of someone passing information about one, and your are on it like a shot.
I rest my case.
Hmm. Did I say to Mr Wilson that he could PM me about the rides was concerned about? And where’s the evidence for us trying to brush things under the carpet? It doesn’t exist!
Silvoir
It’s not a question of "brushing things under the carpet", but of ignoring that which is obvious, which neglect, by definition, leaves no tangible evidence.
How many of your "dozens of experienced, vigilant and professional race-readers" actually queried the rides on Quentin Collonges, either when he was held up on his penultimate start at Taunton, or on his subsequent, prominent all the way, win at Doncaster, (both clearly signalled by the betting)? How many enquiries did your "17 stipendary stewards" instigate last week into heavily backed horses winning after being ‘ridden strangely’ in their previous races?
None, I’ll warrant, yet it’s happening, day in day out in British racing, and it needs neither speed mapping nor sectional times to see it.Andy, politically I tend to agree with you – the feudal culture of British horse racing gets on my nerves – but the BHA didn’t change the rule just because of AOB. Or any other Irish trainer. Its incorrect for you to argue that.
Just as a point of interest to some on this thread (yes, me), General Tufto runs tomorrow at 4:40 at Southwell over 1m. I wonder if Atzeni will adopt the same approach of losing 6 lengths after breaking well or ok? Otherwise, I hope some serious questions are asked. Amazingly, none of his wins feature the in running notes of – "broke well, soon held up 6 lengths off the pack off a slow pace, and found a Zenyatta like turn of foot from 2f out to win by 2 lengths eased down"
- Total Posts 17716
Marb
Just to clarify, I had no financial interest in the race in question. Quentin Collonges was chosen simply as the first horse I came across on the RP results card (I ignored the first race as it was a novice’s) that was placed or raced questionably. Had I gone further into that race, or further down that day’s results, there’s little doubt I would have found many more, as could anyone with an elementary understanding of the form book.
My point is, as it has been for quite a while now, why – with all the army of people that the BHA claim to have at their command – are these anomalies ignored every day, yet anyone "passing on information" about them is pursued with a vigour bordering on the manic?
The answer to that gives us all a clue to the BHA’s real proirities, imo.Silvoir
You asked me to make contact regarding corrupt practices. I explained I could not betray the trust given, nor did I have any proof.
So, let me ask you. How many trainers and jockeys contact you directly and voluntarily about corruption? I’m not talking about those already under investigation who might tell all.
Also, how many apprentices, jockeys and trainers leave racing to either ride abroad or give up altogether? Do you contact them before their departure and ask them why?
Would they tell you?
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