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- Posts
They take into account all those things as far as I’m aware. However, clear changes of tactics – going from held up to front running, for example – need to be advertised in advance.
I’m pretty sure this also happens over here. The data can be found 10 mins before the off at http://www.betfair.com
reet hard
What do you think the BHA need to improve, and how can they get ‘their tools’ to work properly, with regard to non-triers?
Surely without specific evidence of corruption, no amount of perceived ‘dodgy’ rides, or the analysis of trainer/jockey combinations, will help ‘convict’, even under their own Rules of Racing.
The BHA have issued bans but these are usually only for a limited period to those working within racing. The miscreants can return better informed (if they should wish) on how to avoid detection. And if there is an appeal, then participation can continue until appeal heard and decided upon.
An incompetence rule, enabling frequent short bans, might reduce the ‘poor’ rides.
The offenders are merely found to be inadequate riders or trainers, rather than corrupt.
- Total Posts 17716
Nor
An example from today’s racing – which took a couple of minutes to find, and about 3 minutes to verify:
Quentin Collonges
29/12/09 Hunt 3m2f Hdl Hvy, 9/4 from 9/2Mostly chased ldr in a race run at a good pace, led after 2 out, styd on dourly, won 4l.
02/02/10 Taunt 3m1f hdl sft, 6/1 op 5/1Held up off an ordinary pace, hdwy 8th, wknd 3 out, btn 37l.
06/03/10 Donc 3m1/2f hdl gd, 9/2 op 6/1 tch 13/2.Raced up with good pace, led 3 out, clr last, styd on strly, won 6l.
Non-trier or corrupt, I wouldn’t know? What I do know is the horse was ridden very differently (in the 2nd race) for no apparent reason, and had nothing like the market support it had for its 2 victories.
Nothing exceptional about it either; every day, in almost every race, there are horses apparently not ridden to best advantage, and it needs nothing more sophisticated than is freely available on any one of half-a-dozen of websites to spot them.
When the BHA begin to even query rides like the above, then we might start to believe they are serious about integrity, until such times I’ll remain convinced they are more concerned with them not being made public.reet hard
One example of many, but how can corruption be proved unless those involved are still unsophisticated? Many excuses can and are used in defence.
You wroteWhen the BHA begin to even query rides like the above, then we might start to believe they are serious about integrity, until such times I’ll remain convinced they are more concerned with them not being made public.
Perhaps they are simply naive. Either way, I don’t accept their view that racing on the whole is clean, and that the overwhelming majority of trainers, jockeys, and owners involved are straight.
Speaking frankly to jockeys over the years, and one very recently, the BHA have a long way to go before those involved are sufficiently worried to stop their practices.
Jockeys are instructed to cheat. And if they wish to continue riding, they will do so.Speaking frankly to jockeys over the years, and one very recently, the BHA have a long way to go before those involved are sufficiently worried to stop their practices.
Jockeys are instructed to cheat. And if they wish to continue riding, they will do so.NORD1
Instead of moaning about racing being bent, I suggest you report your recent conversation to BHA. Do something POSITIVE about it. Then again, maybe you are profiting from these alleged conversations.
Feel free to PM me Nor or, if you’d rather remain anonymous, you can call Racestraight on
08000 852580
.
Just like I never got a PM from Mr Wilson, I won’t wait up…
happy
I’m not moaning, merely stating my experiences when others try to tell me that racing is on the whole clean, and they say the overwhelming majority of trainers, jockeys, and owners are straight. This always gets me going!
I find it sad that such a wonderful sport is not clean, but it’s not the only one.
I don’t profit, nor would I want to, from any information given.
I hardly ever gamble and the maximum when I do is £1 e/w.Silvoir
How can you expect me to betray the trust of someone who speaks to me in confidence?
It must be left to the jockey to come forward but most do not want to destroy their careers.
Besides, what proof do I or anyone else have? Corrupting instructions are not written down, they are verbal and said in private.
Why can’t you design a totting up procedure similar to the use of the whip? If a jockey starts slowly out of the gates, or the stewards are unhappy about the ride, issue a short ban. If this continues, lengthen the ban and ensure remedial training is given.
Likewise for trainers and horses.
Hopefully, you could explain why the above might not be possible. I’m an outsider, and not experienced in such matters.- Total Posts 17716
Speaking frankly to jockeys over the years, and one very recently, the BHA have a long way to go before those involved are sufficiently worried to stop their practices.
Jockeys are instructed to cheat. And if they wish to continue riding, they will do so.NORD1
Instead of moaning about racing being bent, I suggest you report your recent conversation to BHA. Do something POSITIVE about it. Then again, maybe you are profiting from these alleged conversations.
Feel free to PM me Nor or, if you’d rather remain anonymous, you can call Racestraight on
08000 852580
.
Just like I never got a PM from Mr Wilson, I won’t wait up…
When the BHA begin to even query rides like the above, then we might start to believe they are serious about integrity, until such times I’ll remain convinced they are more concerned with them not being made public.
There you go again, Silvoir!
Not a word about the iffy rides that are taking place daily, but one sniff of someone passing information about one, and your are on it like a shot.
I rest my case.
Yeah, just in case the BHA missed it, even ATR and Enzo in the booth never, and they gave us glorious slow motion footage of the jockey deliberately losing 6 lengths at the start, has the jockey who rode General Tufto last week been warned off for life?
ATR’s in running notes from the website were…….
broke well, soon taken back to race 6 lengths off the pack, improved to join the field in last place 4f out, ridden 3f out, never on terms, given too much to do
How can anyone ever explain the "soon taken to race 6 lengths off the pack note?" A life ban would be too short.
But I’m sure Dean McKeown’s court case is going to be good entertainment in the future to see the BHA’s real standing as an "Authority." On incompetence perhaps.
Do any of the readers of the forum think that the new rule about late entering the ring is a response to Aidan being late at the last Derby? The rule refers to as many as are late indicating it seems to me that they are referring to many from the same stable.When one considers the enormous entry fees paid by Ballydoyle without whom last "classic" season would have been a farce it is incredible that they are so small minded as to point a rule at Aidan. Talk about "killing the goose…." I know that Aidan will put the well being of his horses before any rule so why go looking for a conflict with the one stable that has supported the Derby through thick and thin.Incredible.
There you go again, Silvoir!
Not a word about the iffy rides that are taking place daily, but one sniff of someone passing information about one, and your are on it like a shot.
I rest my case.Hmm. Did I say to Mr Wilson that he could PM me about the rides was concerned about? And where’s the evidence for us trying to brush things under the carpet? It doesn’t exist!
Mark’s blog highlights his belief, which I echo, that we should be asking more questions, but that would involve a change of approach that can’t happen overnight.
jose1933
Reference the race you highlighted – General Tufto – a seasoned campaigner who knows his job well. 61 starts, 23 win and placings.
Compare the comments of his last race:
Sporting Life "broke well, soon taken back to race 6 lenghts of the pack……. given too much to do".
Racing Post "steadied start, held up and behind……. driven and no impression final furlong".
What a contrast.
Was this race corrupt? Only the connections and a few trusted outsiders would know. The BHA might be using ‘their tools’ to gather evidence, if there is any. This could take months. We can only guess, and that is what brings racing into disrepute.
I think banning the jockey for life would be too harsh and an appeal would surely follow.
They are only servants doing their masters’ bidding. Some do take matters into their own hands, others foul up because the horse may not oblige. How long do you think their careers would continue if the above happened too often?Silvoir
I cannot get in touch with you as already explained.
But I will ask you again:
Why can you not have a totting up procedure, similar to the use of the whip, but for incompetent rides. It would be instant and a warning.
A one sentence reply will do along the lines of;
"We can’t do this because………".I don’t think a life ban would be too harsh. You’ve got to be some kind of moron to just give away 6 lengths in a mile handicap at Southwell where it can be hard to make up ground. I’m familiar with the horses pattern of racing, and often General Tufto does get back in his races, but when you see a jockey, however experienced or not, just hand every other horse a 6 length head start in a race, you have to wonder what’s going on. If that ride was not top of the BHA’s investigation list last week, I’d really like to know why unless there are 10 more of those type of rides a week, but we shouldn’t worry, Paul is just in the process of detailing how great the new, stiffer corruption penalties are. Yes, but what chance is there of "suspect" rides (it must be described like this for anyone who’s watched the race) facing severe punishment – incompetent or corrupt?
Andyod,
As a keen member of the Southwell paddock squad, I was looking forward to seeing My Sweet Georgia in a handicap on the 19th November last year. We waited in vain – the horse never turned up in the ring until the other members of the field were cantering to the start.
When we finally did catch sight of the horse, it looked as good as anything Mr O Brien would present in a Curragh maiden. Racegoers were trampled underfoot in the rush to back the animal and it duly obliged under a vigorous Kirby ride.
Stef Liddiard, as English a trainer as exists on the Grfeen and Pleasant, was warned about her future conduct. The owners, a pair of confirmed gamblers, admitted that they had delayed the entrance of the horse to throw the bookmakers off the scent. An estimated £25,000 left the ring that afternoon, not including exchange and off course business.
Plenty of other British trainers are late with their entrance to the parade ring. Its not just about O Brien.
Racegoers are entitled – by their admission fee – to witness ALL the horses in the field regardless of national origin.
Jose1993, I was there to see the Tufto ride. A few points.
a) It was ridden by an inexperienced claimer, with even less experience of Southwell.
b) I’ve seen the General look a lot better in his coat.
c) Border Owl, the winner (and pick of the paddock), was expected to take it up at a faster pace than he did and presumably, the field expected the front runner to come back. Best place to be off a slow pace is at the front and young Richard was caught out.
d) General Tufto ran off 74, a perch higher then he had ever won from and possibly too high. He runs off 76 tomorrow. He had a hard task against two of the horses in the race on the figures.
e) I watched one of the owners have £300 to win with the leading grandstand bookie up there. And these guys aren’t Michael Buckley.It wasn’t a good ride, but I heard nothing untoward in the aftermath. There
was
a universally accepted suspicious ride that day – the trainer and a very disgruntled Geordie punter had strong words around the winners enclosure and the paddock gang were furious, hopping mad – but it wasn’t much to do with General Tufto.
Silvoir
I cannot get in touch with you as already explained.
But I will ask you again:
Why can you not have a totting up procedure, similar to the use of the whip, but for incompetent rides. It would be instant and a warning.
A one sentence reply will do along the lines of;
"We can’t do this because………".I’ve had a brief look at the two General Tufto rides and there doesn’t appear to be a great deal of difference to what happens at the start between them, from the limited view there is from ATR. Both times he breaks well, both times he’s restrained. Perhaps the inexperience claimer second time up overdid it, but if that’s the case it looks like just a split second decision gone slightly wrong.
There is already a rule in place for what you might deem incompetence, in that there’s an offence in the aforedmentioned Guide to Penalties on page 7 entitled "Asking for an effort or making some other permissible manoeuvre too late as a result of serious misjudgement or inattention" In my view, that ride would not fall under that as I don’t think it was serious misjudgement or inattention.
Jose1993, I was there to see the Tufto ride. A few points.
a) It was ridden by an inexperienced claimer, with even less experience of Southwell.
b) I’ve seen the General look a lot better in his coat.
c) Border Owl, the winner (and pick of the paddock), was expected to take it up at a faster pace than he did and presumably, the field expected the front runner to come back. Best place to be off a slow pace is at the front and young Richard was caught out.
d) General Tufto ran off 74, a perch higher then he had ever won from and possibly too high. He runs off 76 tomorrow. He had a hard task against two of the horses in the race on the figures.
e) I watched one of the owners have £300 to win with the leading grandstand bookie up there. And these guys aren’t Michael Buckley.Sorry, but there’s a time when handicap marks just don’t matter, and for me that was one of them. I agree with the basis he had a tough task anyway, especially over a mile off that mark. But broke well, restrained immediately 6 lengths off the pack, it was done without even seeing what might develop – and it was not even 6 lengths off the leader who was getting away with a slowish pace, but the pack. At that point, any handicap rating before the race means nothing, because General Tufto’s best chance of winning is now at least 6lbs – 12lbs harder than it might have been.
To maxilon
I agree wholeheartedly with you.Unfortunately your average punter does not get within a mile of the horses at Epsom and all Aidans horses will be already familiar to the punters.What you descrinbed is hardly likely to occur in the derby.
HOWEVER THE DERBY IS AN EXCEPTION ; WHEN YOU HAVE PAID THE FULL ENTRY FEE FOR SIX OR SEVEN IN THE DERBY AND HAVE MAYBE TEN OR TWELVE UP TO THE FINAL DECLARATIONS YOU DESERVE A LITTLE CONSIDERATION,TIMEWISE.A FINANCIAL PENALTY IS HARDLY APPROPRIATE CONSIDERING THE VALUE OF THE RACE TO THE BREEDERS OF THE WINNER.THE RACE IS FAR TOO BIG FOR THAT TYPE OF NOSE TWIGGING.ANYWAY HOLDING UP THE START GIVES THE PUNTERS MORE TIME TO VIEW THE OTHER HORSES AND GET ON THEIR FINAL BETS.
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