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Why did they run Declaration Of War? Since the middle of June running in the Queen Anne, Eclipse, Sussex, Marois, the hectic schedule was bound to catch up with him like it did with Dawn Approach in the Marois.
Why did they run Trading Leather? Never going to be as effective at that trip having improved at 12f.
Ditto Hillstar.
Why run Toronado? Never going to stay the trip.
Why run Rewarded? No chance in that field.
There are always reasons not to run Joni.
May be nothing should’ve turned up at York? Greedy to do so?As PC says, Al Kazeem had already shown form on firm ground, even firmer than yesterday. No reason not to run. But that does not mean a horse wouldn’t feel it on this/any particular occasion, because Al Kazeem’s action is nowhere near as fluent as Trading Leather.
Roger Charlton is flat racing’s Tim Forster, the ultimate pessimist, always got a reason not to run. This time Charlton possibly proved right, but he could easily have pulled Al Kazeem out of both Prince Of Wales and Eclipse too. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I’ve heard people say Al Kazeem wasn’t travelling as well. In my opinion he ran a bit in snatches. At times pushed along, but also soon back on the bridle. But if looking at the Prince Of Wales he was one of the first pushed along there too. It’s just him.
Also a possibility Al Kazeem just needed the race. No run between early July and mid to late-August. Won first time this season, but came on a lot for the run. Though it has to be said ran well first time in 2012. So it might not be a ground issue. Connections need to come up with an excuse and in a race like this are not going to say "unfit".
Don’t think we’d better get in to the Frankel debate, but spot on Joni.
Value Is EverythingWell all that is true Ginge but I am not saying that a horse should only run if they have their optimum conditions. That wasn’t the case with Frankel either, but I DO think that the three examples I highlighted were ones where, on balance, they were asking their horses to do too much.
Perhaps the exception is AK who had run well on firm ground but I use that one only as his trainer HAD stated categorically that he would not run on that surface again.
So I take your point but it was not really what I was getting at. Of course there is always a certain amount of doubt but, in these specific cases with these top class horses, there was more to it than that and the trainers ALL had grave misgivings before the race and were swayed by outside factors.
Do form figures of 14216 do justice to Toronado?
Do form figures of 10125 do justice to DA?"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Do form figures of 14216 do justice to Toronado?
Do form figures of 10125 do justice to DA?Yes, the formbook does not lie. If they had ‘11111’ then this would have been one dull Classic Generation flat season thus far.
Well all that is true Ginge but I am not saying that a horse should only run if they have their optimum conditions. That wasn’t the case with Frankel either, but I DO think that the three examples I highlighted were ones where, on balance, they were asking their horses to do too much.
Perhaps the exception is AK who had run well on firm ground but I use that one only as his trainer HAD stated categorically that he would not run on that surface again.
So I take your point but it was not really what I was getting at. Of course there is always a certain amount of doubt but, in these specific cases with these top class horses, there was more to it than that and the trainers ALL had grave misgivings before the race and were swayed by outside factors.
Do form figures of 14216 do justice to Toronado?
Do form figures of 10125 do justice to DA?If connections knew there was something wrong with Toronado Joni, they would not have run, same for the "4" figure. It was nothing like Cecil/Frankel/Derby debate, there were genuine reasons to try Toronado @ 10f. Ok, I did not believe Toronado would stay, but can’t say I was right, palpably wrong and beaten well before stamina came in to play. Had yesterday been just a mile nobody would be saying he should not have run. Yet it would’ve still been a "6" up against Toronado’s name.
I don’t take much notice of "form figures" anyway Joni. "Form" to me is how one horse ran against another. The "2" in Toronado’s form figures is (for me) better than most horse’s Group 1 "1"s. It’s all about standard of performance.
There were "grave misgivings" about New Approach’s temperament allowing him to stay. Bolger took the chance and despite pulling won the race. Dawn Approach had doubts about him that turned out to be justified. Would you rather New Approach’s Epsom "1" had been taken out of his "form figures" Joni?
Fact is once a horse wins a race everyone forgets the "grave misgivings" beforehand, yet when they appear justified people say "shouldn’t have run"
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Some trainers will keep quiet beforehand and we don’t hear about their misgivings. If there is a lot of criticism from Down etc. a lot more trainers will just give the old O’Brien/Coolmore spin Joni (never a negative).
For sure Bolger took a chance running Dawn Approach in France so soon after the Sussex. But he’d already won at Ascot when there were just as many (if not more) people questioning beforehand whether he should run after a quick turn around from Epsom. Would you like to take Dawn Approach’s Royal Ascot "1" away from him Joni?
Whichever way you try and justify it Joni, you are talking in hindsight.
Value Is EverythingWhen it comes to racing all sight is hindsight.Everything else is claptrap.Racing is about analyzing past performance and drawing conclusions from past performance.
Well Ginge I know better than to get into a long drawn out one with you so I’ll let it go.
You are right I am talking mainly in hindsight (although I did post on my thread that I was worried about Toronado being run as an afterthought) and until you try you never know.
My last word on it is that I wouldn’t mind betting all three of those trainers will probably say to themselves one day "I KNEW I shouldn’t have run him in that."
Sir Henry thankfully never had to.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Well Ginge I know better than to get into a long drawn out one with you so I’ll let it go.
Value Is EverythingI have to agree with Joni. There seem to have been several instances of trainers misjudging the potential or current well being of their horses this season. That is surely what set the genius of Sir Henry aside from the average flat trainer, the ability to understand where his horses were at and their potential and preferences?
I can’t see any merit in the scatter gun approach of some prominent trainers. It has sod all to do with derring-do and everything to do with greed and a shortfall in training skills IMO.
Are you attending the service in Ely on the 16th Joni? I’ve booked the day off work to go and pay my respects to the great man.
I have to agree with Joni. There seem to have been several instances of trainers misjudging the potential or current well being of their horses this season. That is surely what set the genius of Sir Henry aside from the average flat trainer, the ability to understand where his horses were at and their potential and preferences?
I can’t see any merit in the scatter gun approach of some prominent trainers. It has sod all to do with derring-do and everything to do with greed and a shortfall in training skills IMO.
Are you attending the service in Ely on the 16th Joni? I’ve booked the day off work to go and pay my respects to the great man.
Far be it for me to interrupt the daily
‘Joni & Hammy Cecil / Frankel Love-in (TM)’
, but are you seriously suggesting the likes of Aiden O’Brien and Jim Bolger are "greedy" and have a "shortfall in training skills"?
Come on down lads, Planet Earth beckons.
I have to agree with Joni. There seem to have been several instances of trainers misjudging the potential or current well being of their horses this season. That is surely what set the genius of Sir Henry aside from the average flat trainer, the ability to understand where his horses were at and their potential and preferences?
I can’t see any merit in the scatter gun approach of some prominent trainers. It has sod all to do with derring-do and everything to do with greed and a shortfall in training skills IMO.
Are you attending the service in Ely on the 16th Joni? I’ve booked the day off work to go and pay my respects to the great man.
Far be it for me to interrupt the daily
‘Joni & Hammy Cecil / Frankel Love-in (TM)’
, but are you seriously suggesting the likes of Aiden O’Brien and Jim Bolger are "greedy" and have a "shortfall in training skills"?
Come on down lads, Planet Earth beckons.
What I was suggesting, and I stand by, is that Sir Henry was a far more skilled trainer than either of those and several others, which his treatment of Frankel aptly demonstrated. And yes, IMO greed is the driving force. Greed for both money and notoriety.
PS You won’t interrupt my admiration of Sir Henry. My adulation knows no bounds and your opinion of him and the Frankel situation means less than nothing to me.
As long as Sir Henry had the best horses to train he was very good.(same for Stoutie) Bolger never got a hand up from anyone. I know he lacks the "class" of some but he was never raised in an entitlement society. Same for Aidan. He was offered the job at Coolmore when still a very young man because he was a brilliant trainer.Had Aidan carried on like Sir Henry did,cocking his head etc etc and asking for the
opinion of the press he would be made a laugh of. Nobody would be talking of how cute he is with his roses.Al Kazeem had finished in front of Declaration of War the last time the two met over a 1m2f and jockey Joseph O’Brien pinned defeat on himself that day.
He said: "The Eclipse was my fault, James [Doyle, rider of Al Kazeem] got first run on me." That is not the only group race lost to Coolmore due to not having Murtagh riding their group one horses.Good to hear young O’Brien acknowledging it.
I have to agree with Joni. There seem to have been several instances of trainers misjudging the potential or current well being of their horses this season. That is surely what set the genius of Sir Henry aside from the average flat trainer, the ability to understand where his horses were at and their potential and preferences?
I can’t see any merit in the scatter gun approach of some prominent trainers. It has sod all to do with derring-do and everything to do with greed and a shortfall in training skills IMO.
Are you attending the service in Ely on the 16th Joni? I’ve booked the day off work to go and pay my respects to the great man.
I am totally gutted Hammy but I will be working in Qatar. It was a trip booked months ago and I can’t get out of it. I will have to rely on you to please tell me all about it.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
As long as Sir Henry had the best horses to train he was very good.(same for Stoutie) Bolger never got a hand up from anyone. I know he lacks the "class" of some but he was never raised in an entitlement society. Same for Aidan. He was offered the job at Coolmore when still a very young man because he was a brilliant trainer.Had Aidan carried on like Sir Henry did,cocking his head etc etc and asking for the
opinion of the press he would be made a laugh of. Nobody would be talking of how cute he is with his roses.Ah yes – Andy the good old "poor downtrodden Irish" card. I was wondering when you might play that one!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The reality is that in the UK there is no such thing as a soft Group 1 race.
An accumulation of Group 1 s on firm ground usually takes its toll.
Not impossible that we have seen the best of the likes of Toronado, Al Kazeem, Sky Lantern etc and it will be a struggle for them in the autumn as the ground softens
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