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Zarkava who I would rate above Sea the Stars based on her far superior Arc win and Zenyatta who I would rate above them both.
Which is nonsensical given that STS’s Eclipse form is at least half a stone better than what he showed in Paris.
he beat Conduit by just about the distance you would expect in the Arc considering it was Conduit’s much preferred trip.
In the King George Conduit beat Alwaary (rpr 113) by four and a quarter lengths. In the Eclipse he beat Cima De Triomphe (rpr 116) by 5L. If anything it could be argued that the Eclipse was the better run by Conduit.
I’ve read some crap on here but your reply takes the biscuit.
The minute you start looking down the field at horse who may or may not have run their best or worst race the you really have lost the plot. Bringing Alwary into the discussion is really nonsensical…..Monitor Closely beat him 15 lengths so you will be telling us next he must be better than Conduit and See the Stars
As far as Cima De Triomphe is concerned he hasn’t raised a gallop since he beat Conduit at Sandown. In 4 subsequent races he has been been beaten an average of 8 lengths…….these horses have absolutely nothing to do with anything
SMS has made it perfectly clear Conduit is a late season horse and the only reason he ran him in the Eclipse was had he won it would have boosted his stud value no end. He also said and I have no reason to disbelieve the man he was not at his best in the King George.
His main target was always the Arc and the Breeders because he’s an Autumn horse. Trained to the minute and running over his best trip 1m 4f he showed the expected improvement and finished 3 lengths closer to Sea the Stars in the Arc than he did in the Eclipse.
Who told you the Eclipse was his best performance? Timeform did that’s who.
After the Arc everyone was saying Sea the Stars was fantastic! best performance of his life! but then Timeform realized the had made a huge boo! boo! and said he only ran to a 132. The all of a sudden the Eclipse was his best run.
Let’s look at the Eclipse. He beat a horse who has been confirmed by his Jockey as a miler. Something he said after the Eclipse and just before the Sussex, then repeated after the Breeders. You may think Conduit ran to his best that day but I think you’ll be in a very small minority.
If you wan’t to get silly Rip Van Winkle met Sea the Stars 3 times and finished closer to him in the Eclpise than any of the other occasions.
Anyone fan who says they weren’t blown away with Sea the Stars performance in the Arc has a problem with the truth….go back and read the threads immediately after the race………greatest of all time they said.
The fact is they now don’t want to admit that either Sea the Stars was either grossly overrated or Zarkava was underrated. The fact is everything points to her being at least his equal if not better. If you can show me one piece of form including times, ground, how fast each horse covered the last 300 yds, how their turn of foot compared with the 2nd just anything that indicates Sea the Stars was the better horse I’ll eat my hat. Bloody Alwaary? yer aff yer heid
Be the Lord Fist, that was a serious post!
The fact of the matter is we will never know who would have won in a race.
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Perhaps I should get a publicity agent help me calm my knickers
Zarkava who I would rate above Sea the Stars based on her far superior Arc win and Zenyatta who I would rate above them both.
Which is nonsensical given that STS’s Eclipse form is at least half a stone better than what he showed in Paris.
he beat Conduit by just about the distance you would expect in the Arc considering it was Conduit’s much preferred trip.
In the King George Conduit beat Alwaary (rpr 113) by four and a quarter lengths. In the Eclipse he beat Cima De Triomphe (rpr 116) by 5L. If anything it could be argued that the Eclipse was the better run by Conduit.
As far as Cima De Triomphe is concerned he hasn’t raised a gallop since he beat Conduit at Sandown. In 4 subsequent races he has been been beaten an average of 8 lengths…….these horses have absolutely nothing to do with anything – – To be fair I dont think we can really rate Cima De Triomphe on his Austrailia runs, he clearly performs better over here, and you could put Zarkava down with him flopping as well.
SMS has made it perfectly clear Conduit is a late season horse and the only reason he ran him in the Eclipse was had he won it would have boosted his stud value no end. He also said and I have no reason to disbelieve the man he was not at his best in the King George. – – This is a debateable point too, Conduit was pretty good on his first start back this year, giving Cima De Triomphe 7 pounds and just failing to nail him given this strong run, he had strong course and distance coming into The Eclipse, he ran a good race but ran into two superb colts.
His main target was always the Arc and the Breeders because he’s an Autumn horse. Trained to the minute and running over his best trip 1m 4f he showed the expected improvement and finished 3 lengths closer to Sea the Stars in the Arc than he did in the Eclipse. – – Sea The Stars had put 5 lengths between him and Conduit 1.5f out, unlike the Eclipse where the horse was given a challenge no horse in The Arc were good enough to give him a race.
Who told you the Eclipse was his best performance? Timeform did that’s who.
After the Arc everyone was saying Sea the Stars was fantastic! best performance of his life! but then Timeform realized the had made a huge boo! boo! and said he only ran to a 132. The all of a sudden the Eclipse was his best run.
Let’s look at the Eclipse. He beat a horse who has been confirmed by his Jockey as a miler. Something he said after the Eclipse and just before the Sussex, then repeated after the Breeders. You may think Conduit ran to his best that day but I think you’ll be in a very small minority.
– – He maybe his best at his mile but I dont think you can hold that as a reason he performed so badly, and I think they will aim Rip Van Winkle at the big 1m2f races, you think of Twice Over who has struggeled mostly in strong run races where stamina comes into play so I think he does get it and next year shoulld prove it. He is very versatile imo.
The fact is they now don’t want to admit that either Sea the Stars was either grossly overrated or Zarkava was underrated. The fact is everything points to her being at least his equal if not better. If you can show me one piece of form including times, ground, how fast each horse covered the last 300 yds, how their turn of foot compared with the 2nd just anything that indicates Sea the Stars was the better horse I’ll eat my hat. Bloody Alwaary? yer aff yer heid
– – You take the allowance off Zarkava, Sea The Stars should be the better horse when you have exact length differnce, but then you put Zarkava in the race could she of sailed past, would Sea The Stars find more, who knows.
If I had a vote for HOY it would be definitely be for Zenyatta.
Not much to split the 2 horses apart-but i’m fed up with Jess Jackson and his PR onslaught.
Pity it can’t be a dead heat really.
Well, there have been co-horses of the year. But I think this one will go one way or the other.
Alysheba, I’m glad you mentioned Presious Passion because apart from Z, this one got me roaring like an elephant. All the Ryder Cup style jingoism went out the window. How could this one quicken at the end of that gallop? Talk about heart. I’d love to see Presious race again and I’ll be keeping an eye on the entries next season.
As for the whip, in the main forum, you’ll see a lot of the guys beating up Tom Queally for his ride on Twice Over. I must confess to missing it live in my excitement but for some of the faces up there to complain publicly, it must have been bad. I was sickened by Borel’s ride on Rachel and I really do hope she comes back because there’s no place for the stick when used with such Jesuit enthusiasm, in my opinion. I’d love to see the whip banned the world over, Alysheba, a move which could be a key to helping racing grow once again.
You weren’t the only one roaring for Presious Passion! LOLOL I believe he will be back again. He’s a 6yo gelding. You know I can’t believe I was not spelling his name right. It’s actually misspelled which is why. LOLOL So I was correct but wrong.
I was looking at the whips used in the Woodward and Saratoga has jockeys using new padded whips that are supposedly less evasive than regular ones. Apparently they don’t sting anywhere near as badly as normal whips used elsewhere. Not that I’m advocating bashing a horse but at least they are less severe. From the photos of Borel in that race he was using this kind of whip.
Quality Road (the horse who would not load) apparently would not get on the plane. So he’s being vanned back to New York. That is a LOOOOOONG ride. He has stitches, he nearly knocked a tooth out, he’s got a laceration and a big bruise over one eye, and a pretty significant hematoma on his left leg from freaking out in the gate. He never had these kinds of problems when he was with former trainer Jimmy Jerkens.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/53390/traumatized-quality-road-will-van-home
Stumbled across this blog looking for news stories about Zenyatta. As a huge Zenyatta fan in America, it’s great to see so much love for her in the UK and mentioning her in the same sentence as Euro superstars Zarkava and Sea the Stars shows respect as well. You also seem to have some knowledgeable HR fans who know their horses and give good pre-race analysis.
I also wish there was something like the Breeders Cup in England, Ireland or France, several G1 stakes on the same day, that would draw American horses. Didn’t really like the ESPN Euro vs US hype that tried to make the BC races into the Olympics or Ryder Cup though it might have drawn some non-racing fans into the sport. Having a Breeders Cup like event in Europe would make for a great rivalry because it’s not easy to ship that far and do well on an unfamiliar track and surface. In fact it’s incredibly difficult. Euro horses winning 6 of the races with so few starters shows that you have some great horses and excellent trainers over there. I also love the great miler Goldikova and it’s somewhat of a shame that her repeat win in blazing time from a bad post on the tight-turn, short stretch American turf course was overshadowed by Zenyatta’s win in the Classic.
I also really like Gio Ponti and not just because he completed my Exacta, lol. That’s one American turf horse that could run well in G1 races in Europe. I have been wanting Zenyatta to be more challenged in her 5yo campaign, try a distance of ground and try running on the turf in G1 open races, not just keep blowing away fillies and mares. The Mosses and John Shirreffs seemed obsessed with keeping her winning streak going and pointing her whole season towards the BC, either running her in the Ladies Classic if she wasn’t quite in top form and going in the Classic if she was. As a racing fan I would have liked to see Z ship once or twice for other big races in America, but that might have left her a bit empty for the BCC and I can’t quarrel with the result. That was one of the greatest races I have ever seen and I go back to Secretariat’s time.
Life is Sweet is also an excellent horse who will do better with more distance and her Ladies Classic win flatters Zenyatta’s earlier form and silences the critics who claimed Zenyatta was beating nothing in her gender restricted prep races leading up to the Breeders Cup. BTW, don’t you hate the name change from the Distaff to the "Ladies Classic"? Sounds like a freaking golf or bowling tournament. Another desperate attempt to lure in the non-racing fan by dumbing down the sport.
John Shirreffs, trainer of Life is Sweet and Zenyatta, is a true horseman who takes really good care of anyone in his barn, not just the superstars. His training double of the BCLC and BCC in the same year or Zenyatta’s consecutive years wins of the BCLC and BCC will be hard to duplicate as will Freddy Head’s riding and training double with Miesque and Goldikova. John Shirreffs also has a channel on YouTube where he shares a backstrech view with racing fans;
http://www.youtube.com/user/jonshfs05
This is one of my favorites, a very sleepy Life is Sweet trying to wake up in the morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idWtmffgNzU
Another good videographer is Larry Zap
http://www.youtube.com/user/larryzapeye
This is a favorite trackside video of Zenyatta at the 2008 Clement L. Hirsch at Del Mar. The view of her coming through the tunnel leading to the track at 1:10 really shows her personality, power and eagerness to run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tiGo9ZTyOk
enjoy.
They keep takin gracing stuff off utube over here; it was all the utube coverage that got me gunning for Zenyatta before the race. Trainer sounds a really great bloke who deserves his success.
I wish that they could get Tom Durkin back for the commentary of the Breeders Cup. He used to really heighten the excitement of the races and he is really badly missed in my opinion. Trevor Denman just doesn’t come close.
Alysheba, thanks for that whip info. Mayby more non-racing fans should be informed of that new whip because it doesn’t look good. Even long term race nuts of my acquaintance felt Borel was reminiscent of Piggott on Roberto in the 1972 Derby: a cruel ride on a brave horse.
Welcome to the forum, ___________ and a good post to start with. We do have several meetings which could theoretically attract US horses (Champions Day at Newmarket; the Arc meeting), but we tend to race on turf and the prize money in the UK at least is something of an issue. Love to see Gio Ponti here but even Clement, a native of France and an ex-assistant to the wily Luca Cumani, has, to my knowledge, never travelled a horse overseas. He’d be a superb Eclipse horse/Champion Stakes horse for next year.
I also wish there was something like the Breeders Cup in England, Ireland or France, several G1 stakes on the same day, that would draw American horses.
Arc day at Longchamp is a European championship day of sorts. It has the Arc 12f (Classic), Prix de l’Opera 10f (Distaff/Ladeez Classic), Prix de l’Abbaye 5f (Sprint), Prix Marcel Bousac 1m (Juve fillies), Grand Criterium 7f (Juve), Prix Cadran 2½m (Marathon… a real one).
The two 2yo races may not be outright championship races, as there are other ones that are arguably more important later in Oct and Nov in England and France. The card also lacks a big Mile race.
Outside of the Arc the purses for the other races are hardly enough to tempt American horses (most are in the $400k-500k range), but the $6m for the Arc should be more than enough to tempt American horses whose trainers are brave enough to run without Lasix.Thanks for the welcome. You may well see Gio Ponti somewhere in Europe on his way to Dubai next year.
“We have decided to race Gio Ponti again next year having completed a stellar campaign with him in 2009, winning four Grade 1 races in a row and beating some of the best colts in the world in the tremendously historic Classic last Saturday at Santa Anita,” Castleton Lyons President Shane Ryan said. “The leading American colt Gio Ponti will eventually become a very worthy addition to the stallion ranks at Castleton Lyons, but in the meantime for all of his fans out there we are thrilled to declare our intentions for 2010 with the Dubai World Cup as an exciting early-season objective.”
thoroughbredtimes.com
11/13/09 or is that 13/11/09?
"…beating some of the best COLTS in the world in the tremendously historic Classic…", gives me a bit of a chuckle as a Zenyatta fan.
I hope Europe stands firm in it’s lasix ban. New York State refused to permit lasix for many years but finaly caved in about 1995. In addition to it’s questionable use to enhance performance, the widespread use of lasix in America means we have bred several generations of bleeders. Recently there has been some talk in the US of banning lasix in graded stakes races or at least G1 races and that would be a step in the right direction.
The whip Alysheba is referring to is the ProCush whip that is catching on in America and may well be mandated soon. The ProCush whip has also been Jockey Club approved for use by National Hunt jockeys in the UK. It is a padded whip with a long "popper" at the end that relies more on the popping sound to "encourage" a horse to run than the sting of a conventional whip.
This is probably a topic for another forum, but since it has been brought up here I’ll put in my opinion. Whipping a horse to drive them towards a win is one thing but what I hate to see is a frustrated jockey whipping a fading third or fourth place finisher. Jockeys are human, very competitive, and hate to lose but If the 2nd or at least third strike doesn’t get any more out of a horse the 10th or 12th certainly won’t. There may be some moral obligation to the show bettor but not to the extant of abusing a tired horse. The best jockeys don’t usually overwhip but just use the whip to get a horse to top gear and hand ride or use the whip sparingly from there. I wouldn’t want to ban the whip because if you take that tool out of a jockeys hands there would be a lot more horse and jockey-killing accidents. Hitting a horse right or left-handed to keep it straight or waving the whip beside the horses face, for example. Of course the whip can cause problems too, causing the horse to veer in front of another but jockeys get suspended often enough for that to check that behavior.
Queally’s heavy right-handed whipping of Twice Over in the BCC has been controversial. Tom Queally did close a gap between Twice Over and Summer Bird that Zenyatta could have gone through and won more easily than she did and forcing Zenyatta to go around the back of Twice Over gave his horse the best chance to win. Twice Over was responding all the way to the wire to outfinish Summer Bird and the rest behind him so I’d have to say Queally gave his horse a really good ride. Mike Smith could have forced Zenyatta through the closing gap but wisely chose not to. Zenyatta is definitely big enough to muscle her way through a narrow closing gap, compare her size to Twice Over when she goes by, but Mike Smith forcing her through the gap could have resulted in DQ or even injury. Besides, Mike knew he had enough time and more than enough horse to get to the wire first once he got clear on the outside. By contrast, John Murtagh had RVW well positioned on the backstretch but when he shook the reins and RVW didn’t respond, he knew it wasn’t RVW’s day and didn’t hit him once, also the right thing to do.
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