- This topic has 140 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
- Total Posts 17716
…
I think it was Brough Scott who pointed out that when he won the Arc, Sea The Stars posted a faster time than Dancing Brave – and accelerated just as quickly – but more tellingly, also pointed out that had Dancing Brave run in STS’s Arc ( on what was similar ground in 1986 and 2009 ), then Dancing Brave would have finished six lenths adrift.
Food for thought ?
…
no not really…so he’d have finished behind La Boum then…lol! poor form by Scott to come out with that nonsense. Sea Bird would have been tailed off under this comparison. utter crap and I’m surprised, frankly, that you seem to go along with it. Not your usual standard Himself
Your last paragraph is about right though, so I shall give mine:-
For those comparing Sea The Stars with Zarkava we should remember that not only Youmzain gives us a clue but also Dar Re Mi and we all know how she ran over her.
Zarkava’s Arc I think, also had more strength in depth, with other winners of 25 Gr. 1 races by the time of the race, including 6 Derby winners from across the world, and probably 7 if New Approach hadn’t shirked the issue. This year’s Arc seemed to have at least 10 no hopers with not many you could make an e.w. case for.
I find Zarkava and Zenyatta remarkably similar, their temperament and style of running and the way they finish their races. Quite extraordinary that they should be contemporaries.
Correct me if Im wrong but didnt a 150 to 1 shot finish fourth in Zarkavas arc. what …beaten 3 or 4 lengths. My point at this stage is well made. Depending on who you like best, the more you can choose evidence to support it.
Now we are bordering on the ridiculous Harry. That horse was an unknown to most German horse who knocked up something like 6 wins on the trot, went of the boil for a couple of races then ran the race of it’s life in the Arc. Immediately afterward it, he or she was retired to stud so no one knows enough
about the horse for it to have any real baring on the discussion.The Dar Ra Mi, Youzmain, Zarkava, Sea the Stars gives us a realistic guide to just how they compared. On form and Visually I think it’s fair to say there wouldn’t have been many ounces between them.
Alysheba, I said to Stephen Millar that Summer Bird could win the Ascot Gold Cup over 2m 4f. Rice ought to bring him over because the horse is all about stamina as you allude to. Ascot have a track record of paying expenses too (Ken McPeek and Hard Buck). Fancy contacting him?
But overall, I disagree with you about the merits of the generation. Up till Zenyatta last night I’ve despaired over this flat season, the worst in my memory – I’d been considering switching codes to the jumps until Zenyatta reminded me that for sheer blood tingling, tear-jerking, pulse-punding, wood-inspiring excitement, you can’t beat top quality flat racing.
Max, I would love for him to try doing something like that. Convincing the connections however, would take a lot of work. Tim Rice has only had his liscense for a year. I’m sure his stable will be full by the end of this one. Summer Bird and Mine That Bird are two horses that would relish a distance. They both have the stamina to do it. However, they did not seem to be running as effectively on this synthetic and it leads me to think that their connections won’t try turf at all. Then again I could be wrong. Summer Bird will relish a mile and a quarter and more if given that. I suspect they may consider the World Cup but I don’t know seeing how the surface will be synthetic too.
There is nothing greater IMO than a horse that is truly brilliant on the flat. I’ve witnessed some wonderful performances in my life and Zenyatta’s ranks up there. Rachel’s Haskell win was undoubtedly one of the best performances I’ve ever seen and it’s a shame that we won’t see what would happen if they met. Rachel though does not have a dislike for the synthetic. She won on it at Keeneland and can run well over it. Her owners though despise it and that is why she was not brought to the Cup. Many say that was because she was ducking Zenyatta but Jackson has said all along he would not ship any of his horses there to compete on it and he did not. Kensei was not there either. Next year she will be at Churchill and the course far more to her liking. If she has the same type of year I’m sure she will run in the Classic. Now, one thing I want to see is if he will go back on what he said and ship her to Dubai for the World Cup. It will be run on Tapeta and I’ll be if he does the backlash will be great.
Zarkava and STS both ran to very similar levels in their Arcs. STS was mightily impressive in the way he quickly shot 4l clear. Zarkava was mightily impressive in the way she cut through them and looked fresh as a daisy in the final 100 yards (as she always did in her races). The fact is that we never got to the bottom of either horse as STS idled and Zarkava only got there in the final furlong in each race and won going sway full of running. So it’s basically impossible to say who is better. STS achieved more in his career but that doesn’t make him a better horse.
One thing I have to disagree with you on Fist is that you say STS didn’t have a turn of foot but Zarkava did. I disagree. STS was a quickener, Zarkava was a lengthener/roller (she gained more and more momentum with every yard she went and always looked smoothest as she passed the post – this is not what a quickener does). Just because she came from the rear doesn’t make her a quickener/turn of foot horse. STS quickened with a turn of foot to win his races 1-2f out (apart from the Guineas) and then maintained his advantage in the final furlong.
Zarkava who I would rate above Sea the Stars based on her far superior Arc win and Zenyatta who I would rate above them both.
Which is nonsensical given that STS’s Eclipse form is at least half a stone better than what he showed in Paris.
he beat Conduit by just about the distance you would expect in the Arc considering it was Conduit’s much preferred trip.
In the King George Conduit beat Alwaary (rpr 113) by four and a quarter lengths. In the Eclipse he beat Cima De Triomphe (rpr 116) by 5L. If anything it could be argued that the Eclipse was the better run by Conduit.
Alysheba, the problem with Summer Bird and MTB is that they won’t have the stamina tests next year which would suit them and cement their places in the pantheon. On several occasions this summer I’ve watched Summer Bird and he just doesn’t have a change of gear. Over your side of the pond, that can often be considered a drawback. Over here, its more often than not seen as a desirable quality. I see your point with turf though.
Do you think Rachel will come back next year after the demented thrashing administered by Borel at Saratoga? Even the great Sceptre was eventually soured by the stick.
Exactly Max. We don’t have anything that would help a potential runner to go further than a mile and a quarter on dirt. Therefore we are left with horses that have no base to run on going that distance. I would not be surprised to see Cloudy’s Knight go over jumps at some point. He’s got the conditioning and all of Sheppard’s horses learn to jump. Summer Bird has a small kick in the end but honestly, it’s not the European kind of kick which he would need to win any turf race here or there. We go really quick the first part and that ends up being that our horses only have one gear. Precious Passion is that type of horse. He goes out fast and God help ya if you can’t catch him. He just does not slow down. If he ran there he’d probably be leading by 20 or 30 lengths. Summer Bird has been a bit closer in the races he’s run since the Belmont because he has to be. If he were to lay way off of it there would have to be a strong pace for him to run at otherwise he’s cooked. MTB was done in by the lack of pace on Saturday and the fact he’s not a synthetic horse didn’t help. I say take him and run him on dirt. Which I think will now be their plan. Summer Bird did not have a pace but he managed to run okay. The lack of pace didn’t help but he finished better than a lot of the ones that needed that pace that was no longer there thanks to the fact Quality Road was scratched.
I think Rachel will be fine. She had to really run in the Woodward and Borel had to get after her more than ever that day. Macho Again would have caught her if it had been any more distance. You have much stricter rules regarding whips in England than we do here. Though there have been cases where jockeys have been reprimanded for it. The one case that got me was of Russell Baze who continued to whip a horse after he broke down in a race. It was a HUGE outcry and also Jeremy Rose was once so mad at a horse that he hit her in the face with the whip during the stretch drive. He was given a lengthy suspension and fined. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior. No doubt wherever she goes she won’t have to worry too much. If she goes against males she’ll have a weight advantage. Plus, there really aren’t anymore handicaps left here. And when there are ones it’s absolutely laughable. A top horse may carry 122 or 123 in a race and some trainers complain about that. It’s a shame that we have actually ruined racing in a lot of ways here. We won’t ever see horses like Kelso or even Cigar who carried and won with 130. I believe Curlin won a race in Dubai carrying 132 or something like that. He wouldn’t here. They just won’t assign it for fear of having the horse scratch.
Is Gingertipster your twin brother, Ugly Mare ?
He also said one of my posts was not of its usual standard. Pray tell, what indeed is my usual standard ? Methinks that it must be quite high judging by both back handed compliments.Do please give a poor, defenceless man a break – it can be very tough at the top, as you well know.
…
poor Ginger…..
I’m afraid my idea of value is shopping at Aldi’sit was not your usual standard because you didn’t use the word ‘poppycock’ in relation to Scott’s ramblings. I’ve noticed you’ve used it elsewhere and for some strange reason it makes me giggle uncontrollably when I see it
on topic, Mr Fist has said what I wanted to say about the ratings discrepancy and I do feel that these last 2 seasons we have seen something truly exceptional and quite out of the ordinary with these 2 fillies [you can even add a couple more], and yet the British/Irish writers and ratings experts, to my mind, seem either unable or unwilling to catch up, yet with some colts mostly trained by Aidan O’Brien, they seem content to pluck any figure out of the air that fits the mood. So when a filly does the hammering, it doesn’t quite add up does it? and the plaudits just aren’t there, and that annoys me.
We’re all the losers and we would never have got it but just think what could have been:-
Zarkava – Zenyatta – Raven’s Pass – New Approach – Rachel Alexandra – Sea The Stars10f Gr.1. – a terrible shame.
We’re all the losers and we would never have got it but just think what could have been:-
Zarkava – Zenyatta – Raven’s Pass – New Approach – Rachel Alexandra – Sea The Stars10f Gr.1. – a terrible shame.
That would be the definition of all hell breaking loose. LOLOL
It’s good to dream. The only sad thing is unlike team sports our heroes are often not here long. We have to enjoy them while they are. One day we will all be too old to go to the racetrack and will be forced to fight the other seniors at the retirement homes for control of the remote on race days. Now that will be something to bet on.I posted this in another thread but if you want to take a gander this is a work by Zenyatta with Mike Smith aboard. It’s kind of cool to watch. He’s wearing a helmet cam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv49V2RzgHw
My only regret about the race is having that bet on Richards Kid, because part of me [the selfish bit] wanted him to beat Zenyatta…I remember just before the race started wishing I hadn’t done so…having said that I just think it was one of the most exciting races I’d ever seen, partly because I had been looking at Zenyatta on utube for several weeks [again, thanks for all the links], so there was something personal about it all; it was like in the Dessie days when you felt that he was somehow your horse. In future I’m not going to have a bet in that sort of race but will just sit back and enjoy it.
I know what you mean, Moe. I had a dabble on her at the last minute for sentimental purposes, but nothing big. My other bet in the race was Gio Ponti ew, so as you can imagine I was thrilled with the overall result.
I find it odd that some are using Twice Over as a ‘yardstick’
Twice Over was running in a different country, under different rules, with the help of medication on a different surface. You simple can’t compare his UK and US form.
Mike Smith is adament that he never got to the bottom of Zenyatta. I guarantee you that Zenyatta had to work harder to win the Clement L Hirsch than the BCC.
That day, under an over confident ride from Smith, she covered the last quarter in 22.49 seconds and hit the wire at 40mph. Smith turned round and said "She found another gear after the finish".
She hit 40mph without being in top gear? Incredible. Smith didn’t really get at her that day, either and, I quote "She wouldn’t blow out a match" after the race. Again, incredible.
I don’t know what her time was for the final quarter Saturday (albeit over a furlong further) but it would make for interesting reading.
Looking at her after the race, you would not have thought she had one. Ears pricked, playing with the bit, tongue all over the place and still enough energy to do her little dance.
You know, I can’t help but feel that so many are failing to understand why Zenyatta was such a celebrated talent.
It’s not everyday you come across a horse that stands over 17 hh, is drop dead gorgous and boasts a perfect record after fourteen races, all of which were gained by coming from last to first.
Everyone loves a heroine. It adds a touch of romance and her character and idiosyncrasies made us fall in love with her. Even those silks emphasized her beauty, with the jockey wearing that little pink ribbon around his collar.
She really was the ‘Total Package’ and I agree with her owner when he described her as ‘God’s horse’. She is perfect. A strong word, but she has no flaws.
There will be another Sea The Stars. Another Zarkava, Rachel Alexandra and, even though some do not want to admit it, another Arkle and Sea Bird, but there will only ever be one Zenyatta.
I’m not saying she’s the greatest horse to grace the track, but a filly with her ability, size, looks, style and, ultimately, perfect record come along once in a lifetime. I’m only 27, but I will be very, very lucky to see another filly like that.
Horse Of The Year or not, she is the Peoples Champion and has the love and respect that Rachel has not yet earned, and probably never will, regardless of how good she is.
She was perfect. She was unique. She was Zenyatta.
It’s not everyday you come across a horse that stands over 17 hh, is drop dead gorgous and boasts a perfect record after fourteen races, all of which were gained by coming from last to first.
Probably didnt help herself by not racing against the male species more. Ill miss her though
SHL
My only regret about the race is having that bet on Richards Kid, because part of me [the selfish bit] wanted him to beat Zenyatta…I remember just before the race started wishing I hadn’t done so…having said that I just think it was one of the most exciting races I’d ever seen, partly because I had been looking at Zenyatta on utube for several weeks [again, thanks for all the links], so there was something personal about it all; it was like in the Dessie days when you felt that he was somehow your horse. In future I’m not going to have a bet in that sort of race but will just sit back and enjoy it.
You know one of the guys on TVG (I think it’s Ken) says that he has never bet on any of Zenyatta’s races. The reason he gave is pretty much what you said. It’s just something you want to sit back and enjoy. To be a fan not to make a killing on someone possibly beating her but to watch history unfold. The only wager is your heart and hope that she does it again and again. Sure we lose in those kinds of races. Most of us lose water weight from crying out of sheer joy. It’s interesting when you see races such as hers and watch grown men who are normally reserved and strong not be able to talk with tears in their eyes. Funny how an animal doing what they love to do and us humans watching these animals that we love so very much on a daily basis bring us to tears. I think we get horses like her and Dessie who capture the imagination of the racing crowd and the general public just to remind us curmudgeon racing folk that we are involved in this for a reason. To see brilliance once in a while and to share in it even if it is for only for a fleeting moment.
It’s not everyday you come across a horse that stands over 17 hh, is drop dead gorgous and boasts a perfect record after fourteen races, all of which were gained by coming from last to first.
Probably didnt help herself by not racing against the male species more. Ill miss her though
No it didn’t but what did help her is she managed to win on the day when EVERYONE is watching and a lot of them attended. They felt the electricity in that grandstand. Hell, I felt it from Maryland. I think Rachel should be HOTY but I would not be sad to see Zenyatta win it. Let the voters vote. Let the chips fall where they may. I’ve witnessed greatess in person during my last 2 years of life here and I will be telling all those who didn’t about these two, no three (Goldikova should be put in here for what she has done. Even if it’s in the shadow of Zenyatta but right there with Miesque IMO) remarkable fillies in my lifetime.
Alysheba, I’m glad you mentioned Presious Passion because apart from Z, this one got me roaring like an elephant. All the Ryder Cup style jingoism went out the window. How could this one quicken at the end of that gallop? Talk about heart. I’d love to see Presious race again and I’ll be keeping an eye on the entries next season.
As for the whip, in the main forum, you’ll see a lot of the guys beating up Tom Queally for his ride on Twice Over. I must confess to missing it live in my excitement but for some of the faces up there to complain publicly, it must have been bad. I was sickened by Borel’s ride on Rachel and I really do hope she comes back because there’s no place for the stick when used with such Jesuit enthusiasm, in my opinion. I’d love to see the whip banned the world over, Alysheba, a move which could be a key to helping racing grow once again.
We’re all the losers and we would never have got it but just think what could have been:-
Zarkava – Zenyatta – Raven’s Pass – New Approach – Rachel Alexandra – Sea The Stars10f Gr.1. – a terrible shame.
Quite heartbreaking isn’t it? … like one of the great questions of the flat racing universe that’ll never get answered.
Bugger!
If I had a vote for HOY it would be for Zenyatta because she turned up and did the business in American’s biggest all-aged race.
I know that Rachel Alexandra also had a perfect season and ran against the boys three times but some of the collateral forms looks a bit dodgy.
Admittedly she did beat Summer Bird by 6 lengths in the Haskell. However she only beat Mind That Bird by a length in the Preakness and Macho Again by a head in the Woodward.
I think with the addition of really solid performers like Gio Ponti and even Twice Over in the Classic – plus the fourth placed Summer Bird, you have to give it to Zenyatta.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.