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I suspect you had convinced yourself that Zenyatta would have beaten Sea The Stars long before last night’s performance, Fist, but there’s nothing to suggest that Rachel Alexandra couldn’t have lived with her (her obvious dislike of the surface aside). Indeed, on a line through Summer Bird she’s significantly better than the US’s latest heroine and was taking on same-age and older males markedly earlier.
There is just one thing that annoys me with this talk about Zenyatta, and that is people saying about how she’s given the (I take it lead horse) 15 lengths head start and therefore it’s all the more amazing. They went through the first half a mile in sub 48 seconds, from there on the leaders would have been decelerating, and at the same time Zenyatta would have saved and reserved more energy for not running the first half mile 10+ lengths quicker. It’s her way of racing to come from behind. The times were generally slower than last year so it’s not as though they went a slow pace.
Just thought some of you may be interested in this.
US coverage of the Breeders’ Cup…
ZENYATTA DANCE MOVES / PRE-BCC COVERAGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXWDdFYmhkI
ZENYATTA BCC / POST-RACE COVERAGE
Soon as we see another superstar performance Fist quite suddenly comes out with his STS would have lost to her preditable garbage.
2009 BC Classic photos –
http://www.network54.com/Forum/326106/t … sic+photos- Total Posts 17716
I suspect you had convinced yourself that Zenyatta would have beaten Sea The Stars long before last night’s performance, Fist, but there’s nothing to suggest that Rachel Alexandra couldn’t have lived with her (her obvious dislike of the surface aside). Indeed, on a line through Summer Bird she’s significantly better than the US’s latest heroine and was taking on same-age and older males markedly earlier.
To be honest I wasn’t really that confident she would beat Rip Van Winkle until I sat down and really thought about it a few days before the race.
I’ve backed Rip several times but I did maintain he was a miler, since the day he hit the 2 furlong marker at Sandown.
I would not have backed her with any confidence to beat Sea the Stars…my plan was always to back her EW in the hope she would take him on. BTW I would have loved to see StS go there and win but as things turned out that was never going to happen and as things turned out I doubt if he could have anyway,
If you had asked me 3 months ago I would have been the first person to say Rachael would beat her.
It was dead easy to work out or so I thought…Rachael kicks for home well before the bend and by the time Zenyatta can get into top gear she’s home and hosed.
However the more I watched Zenyatta, the more I was convinced this girl would catch anything she had to. It’s fine for people to say she saves energy by hanging back or the first half of the race wasn’t fast but the fact remains she doesn’t only make up the 12 to 15 lengths start she gives them , she does it without even being in top gear. In all but one of her races she has got there., past them with ease and has only been starting to get into top gear when Mike Smith has eased her down because the race was over.
It takes a very very special horse to do that and Zenyatta has never been flat to the boards in her life. Nothing has even looked like beating her bar once when Mike Smith left it a bit late but still got there.
Sea the Stars on the other hand has been flat out twice IMO. He most certainly was in the Arc and I doubt if he could have found much more in the Eclipse than he did. He had already used up a lot of his speed when he and Rip drew clear of the rest and although he appeared to quicken again. I think it was a bit of 6 and half a dozen as clearly Murtagh reckons his didn’t stay.
Anyone can see that See the Stars was flat to the boards when he won the Arc. Mick Kinane himself said "I really got after him". No-one is going to convince me that Arc was any better than the Arc Zarkava ran in and she beat the same horse as StS did but hands and heels only.
Any good judge being true to himself is going to question just how good Sea the Stars was. But people don’t like knocking their heroes so they make up excuses like he didn’t get the run of the race….absolute utter BS he didn’t. The truth is Zarkava IMO was most likely a fair bit better than he was. So Timeform, what do they do to save face?> They say Sea the Stars never ran up to his eclipse mark he only ran to a 132+. I have never heard so much shyte in all my life……he beat Conduit by just about the distance you would expect in the Arc considering it was Conduit’s much preferred trip. The problem was they had rated Sea the Stars vastly superior to Zarkava and had no choice but come up with crap to cover their backsides.
That does not mean Sea the Stars was not a great horse it just means the media just exaggerated how good he actually was. After all it is their job to sell racing and nothing sells better than a Champion.
In reality in many ways Sea the Stars like Zenyatta had a pretty easy time of it.. In the 2000 Guineas, apart from Delegator, who simply isn’t that good the main fancies for the race, namely Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsmen obviously weren’t anywhere near their best.
The Derby form has turned out to be awful and Only Fame and Glory gave it any sort of boost in what can only be described as a very poor Classic.
Mastercraftsman beat himself at York going too fast too soon over an unsuitable trip and I think most agree Fame and Glory would have been more at home in the St Leger than he was in the Champion Stakes.
People quote times but when you have AOB pacemakers, top class horses and fast ground you get fast times. 98% of races aren’t run in that way in the UK and the times are of little importance.
I don’t disagree with AOB when he says Rip Van Winkle was the best of his but blow me the best he’s ever had….who does he think he’s kidding? Another bit of sell my wares propaganda I’m afraid.
It would be unfair to say Sea the Stars was the best of a bad lot as he was vastly superior to any of them and they were at least decent if not great.
When it comes to pecking order some of the statements I have heard on various radio and TV channels from would be judges are unbelievable.
"He’s the best I’ve ever seen" What about Dancing Brave?..Answer.well he never won the Derby.
Sea Bird II? Answer..He achieved more than he did
In my heart of hearts I wouldn’t put Sea the Stars in the top ten……not unless like them I was paid to.
Eclpise, Man O’ War, Sea Buscuit, Phar Lap, Secetariat, Sea Bird II, Nijinsky, Ribot, John Henry,Brigadier Gerard were all unbeliveable champions and the best they have seen is Sea the Stars…..I suggest they are 20 years old and never heard of U-tube, can’t read, are lying through their teeth or simply mad.
I think we have been blessed with 2 amazing fillies in the last 2 years in Zarkava who I would rate above Sea the Stars based on her far superior Arc win and Zenyatta who I would rate above them both.
I think she belongs up there with the elite. The 14/14, her combination of size, agility, speed and pure class make her without doubt the most amazing filly that I have seen. Not because of what she beat but the way she beat them, like all the truly great horses she has the all important Wow! factor
Any good judge being true to himself is going to question just how good Sea the Stars was. But people don’t like knocking their heroes so they make up excuses like he didn’t get the run of the race….absolute utter BS he didn’t.
Fist, by and large, horses do not run like STS did in the arc and win unless they are considerably better than the others. I think this is one thing most experts (im not one) would agree on.
Apart from that most good judges are asking this about all horses. But these particular type of horses, no one really knows but they have to get beaten for us to see the limit of there ability. STS we have been told is a bit of a dosser when he hits the front and I while have no idea if thats definitly true, alot of evidence suggests it might very well be. Zarkava and Zenyatta and never going to win by large distances because its not there style of racing.
So lets have the debate worth having. Which actually achieved more in there racing season or racing??
Its an easier and much more interesting debate to actually have. One could argue that Rachel Alexander or STS probably did because they were constantly trying for the top prize. Perahaps you could argue that this Zenyatta should because she ran more over the course of her life. It depends on what you think the criteria should be.BUt please, stop with the fantasy who would beat who
ITs not even educated guesswork IMO.SHL
No Zarkava or Zenytta never won by much, neither did Sea The Stars which obviously Fist held against Sea The Stars. Also 1.5f out in the Arc, the race was done and dusted and in a matter of strides he put 2 lengths between him and Stacelita when the others charged at the end he was pretty much being eased down. The most impreessive thing about Sea The Stars was that he twice showed in his career to show a turn of foot twice in a race.
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Not educated Guess work?
Ok you tell me what Sea the Stars achieved.
He beat Delegator in the Guineas, the winner of one Group 1 against Zacinto who has won nothing worth talking about.
He beat Fame and Glory and Master of the Horse in the Derby.
Fame and Glory went on to win one of the worst Irish Derby’s in history and flopped in the Arc and again in the Champion Stakes.
Masterofthehorse has been beat an accumulative 30 lengths in his last 3 races.
He beat Rip Van Winkle in the Eclipse who’s Jockey and has confirmed for the second time is a miler after flopping behind Zenyatta. He also beat Conduit and if I have to tell anyone he is not a 1m2f horse then it’s time for you to give up racing.
He beat another miler who 100% does not get 1m3f in Mastercraftsman and Fame and Glory again who should have been running where he belonged in the St Leger.
Nevertheless he won them and won them well but a 140 horse? Never in the creation of man.
The mighty Timeform put him up there and what happened when he won the Arc? Oh! said Timeform that can’t be right. Zarkava who we rated 133 and the European Handicapper gave 127, beat the same horse as he did and was more impressive.
So all of a sudden Sea the Star’s brilliant win wasn’t so brilliant because it doesn’t fit in…….so quick chance he ran a 132
Geez that’s only what 10lb below his best.So what Sea the Stars achieved on paper is full of holes but for me he was better than the form suggests and so was Zarkava.
The overrated horses IMO are Rip Van Winkle Delegator Fame and Glory who were all part of boosting Sea the Stars above his rightful place in history. Goldikova deserves her position in relation to Sea the Stars and maybe should be even closer.
StS’s was never a 140 horse though, no more than Zenyatta was a 128 horse.
Go back and look at the ratings before Saturday. They had Zenyatta the winner of 8 group 1’s, racing in a country regared as one of the top 3 in the world for producing great racehorses, jammed between Delegator 129 and Zacinto 127. Joke of the century that turned out to be
The way I see it is if Mill Reef was 141 and he was a horse with that magical wow factor then Sea the Stars and Zarkava would be around 137 top whack.
It’s hard to judge Zenyatta but Sea the Stars certainly never impressed me like she did. I think we saw one in a million, a true superstar in every sense of the word and she could well be the best filly of all time. Sadly we shall never know.
BTW it’s not educated guess work it’s what your eyes tell you….In the same way I spotted Binocular as a CH prospect the day he ran in his first hurdle race, said Zarkava was a certainty for the Arc 5 months before the race, Sent TAPK a PM telling him to grab the 25/1 for the about St Nicholas Abbey within minutes of him winning his first race…He’s now the shortest AP price for the race in 20 years…now I went all out and said Zenyatta would hand Rip Van Winkle his lunch and send him home packing. I may get a few things wrong mate but when it comes to spotting real class champions early doors it’s got bog all to do with guesswork. After 40 years of watching racing nearly every day, owning and riding the blighters I think I am more than entitled to my opinion without a whippersnapper like you having a go
Just joking mate get stuck in all you want.I don’t mean to offend anyone but Sea the Stars "the best I ever saw" good on anyone who thinks that but he’s still not getting into my club.
Zenyatta? Welcome her with open arms as the best filly I ever saw and if you had told me I was going to say that after Zarakava I would have thought you were mad.
I happen to disagree with Fist on this occasion. You could also ask what has Zenyatta beaten ?
The same question could be aimed at Nijinsky, Ribot – and yes, even Mill Reef… whom trainer Ian Balding has come out and stated ( without prompting, I may add ) that in his considered opinion, Sea The Stars was better than Mill Reef – a statement he previously would simply not have countenanced, vis-a-vis comparison with his beloved little wonder horse.
They, as that tired old saying goes, can only beat what is put in front of them. Sea The Stars did so likewise, only faster, if less spectacularly !
Paul Mellon was asked by a journalist how he would compare Mill Reef to Nijinsky. I wouldn’t, he said – Mill Reef was more like Ribot; both would gallop their rivals into the ground by gradually increasing the pace, whereas Nijinsky was a cuiser who could quicken instantly.
In other words, there’s more than one way to skin a cat ( if you’ll excuse another tired old expression ) and Sea The Stars, just like Zenyatta, had his own way of winning races. Both, like the greats before them, were equally effective in how they achieved their victories.
I think it was Brough Scott who pointed out that when he won the Arc, Sea The Stars posted a faster time than Dancing Brave – and accelerated just as quickly – but more tellingly, also pointed out that had Dancing Brave run in STS’s Arc ( on what was similar ground in 1986 and 2009 ), then Dancing Brave would have finished six lenths adrift.
Food for thought ?
Maybe, but I suppose we can all use statistics to bolster the claims of our favourites whilst denigrating the achievements of others.
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No Zarkava or Zenytta never won by much, neither did Sea The Stars which obviously Fist held against Sea The Stars. Also 1.5f out in the Arc, the race was done and dusted and in a matter of strides he put 2 lengths between him and Stacelita when the others charged at the end he was pretty much being eased down. The most impreessive thing about Sea The Stars was that he twice showed in his career to show a turn of foot twice in a race.
It’s not a case of me holding anything against Sea the stars I say it as it is or at least how is see it.
You say you were impressed by him because he could quicken twice in the same race. Mate all good horses can do that but if you want to be really impressed go and watch a video on U Tube (Secretariat). In the second race show he quickens up like an express train and goes round the entire field to catch the leader just before the home turn. Then his jockey virtually stops him, sits for a dozen strides, then says go again and he leaves the lot of them standing to hack up by 5 lengths.
That’s what separates GREAT!!! horses from very good ones and why Sea the Stars is not and never will be in my top 10.
Do me a favour and go back an watch the last 2 Arcs again only this time take off the rose coloured glasses
Much has been made of the way Sea the Stars quickened up but take a closer look.
Turning for home he’s about 1/2 length in front of Conduit and both Mick Kinane and he and Ryan Moore say go at exactly the same time but while Sea the Stars gets a dream run up the rails, Conduit takes a detour round horses possibly costing him 1/2 length perhaps?…would you agree?
Anyway when Sea the Stars passes the 4f marker stop the video when the commentator says he’s got 6 or 7 lengths to make up….he’s actually 3lengths at most behind Stacelita….stop it again at the 300m line when Sea the Stars front feet hit it. You will clearly see he about 2 1/2 lengths in front of Youmzain the one horse we have as a link between these two very good horses.
The point is you get the impression he’s quickened very dramatically. He has got instant acceleration, definitely more than Conduit and Mick Kinane steals a march on Youmzain which in the end won him the race. But Fallon actually gained about 1/2 length on him by the time he got to the line.
Now go and watch Zarkava and stop the video again and note where Youmzain is in comparison to her. He’s actually in front of her not 2 1/2 lengths behind her like he was Sea the Stars and yet Zarkava just eases past him and leaves him for dead. No raising of the whip….nothing only hands and heels.
That for me is the difference between very good horses and great horses. The ability to not only beat horses like Youmzain but to give them a start and still beat them. I’m pretty sure in my mind had Sea the Stars and Zarkava met she would have done much the same to him as she did to Youmzain. Sea the Stars would have been tougher nut to crack but she looked to have so much speed in reserve I’d have to side with her.
As far as you saying Sea the Stars was being eased in the Arc….When? he got 5 smacks of Kinane the last was just before the 100m mark and he rode him flat out right up until 20 yds from the line.
That’s as good as it gets mate there was nothing left in that old tank after an effort like that.
No Zarkava or Zenytta never won by much, neither did Sea The Stars which obviously Fist held against Sea The Stars. Also 1.5f out in the Arc, the race was done and dusted and in a matter of strides he put 2 lengths between him and Stacelita when the others charged at the end he was pretty much being eased down. The most impreessive thing about Sea The Stars was that he twice showed in his career to show a turn of foot twice in a race.
It’s not a case of me holding anything against Sea the stars I say it as it is or at least how is see it.
You say you were impressed by him because he could quicken twice in the same race. Mate all good horses can do that but if you want to be really impressed go and watch a video on U Tube (Secretariat). In the second race show he quickens up like an express train and goes round the entire field to catch the leader just before the home turn. Then his jockey virtually stops him, sits for a dozen strides, then says go again and he leaves the lot of them standing to hack up by 5 lengths.
That’s what separates GREAT!!! horses from very good ones and why Sea the Stars is not and never will be in my top 10.
Do me a favour and go back an watch the last 2 Arcs again only this time take off the rose coloured glasses
Much has been made of the way Sea the Stars quickened up but take a closer look.
Turning for home he’s about 1/2 length in front of Conduit and both Mick Kinane and he and Ryan Moore say go at exactly the same time but while Sea the Stars gets a dream run up the rails, Conduit takes a detour round horses possibly costing him 1/2 length perhaps?…would you agree?
Anyway when Sea the Stars passes the 4f marker stop the video when the commentator says he’s got 6 or 7 lengths to make up….he’s actually 3lengths at most behind Stacelita….stop it again at the 300m line when Sea the Stars front feet hit it. You will clearly see he about 2 1/2 lengths in front of Youmzain the one horse we have as a link between these two very good horses.
The point is you get the impression he’s quickened very dramatically. He has got instant acceleration, definitely more than Conduit and Mick Kinane steals a march on Youmzain which in the end won him the race. But Fallon actually gained about 1/2 length on him by the time he got to the line.
Now go and watch Zarkava and stop the video again and note where Youmzain is in comparison to her. He’s actually in front of her not 2 1/2 lengths behind her like he was Sea the Stars and yet Zarkava just eases past him and leaves him for dead. No raising of the whip….nothing only hands and heels.
That for me is the difference between very good horses and great horses. The ability to not only beat horses like Youmzain but to give them a start and still beat them. I’m pretty sure in my mind had Sea the Stars and Zarkava met she would have done much the same to him as she did to Youmzain. Sea the Stars would have been tougher nut to crack but she looked to have so much speed in reserve I’d have to side with her.
As far as you saying Sea the Stars was being eased in the Arc….When? he got 5 smacks of Kinane the last was just before the 100m mark and he rode him flat out right up until 20 yds from the line.
That’s as good as it gets mate there was nothing left in that old tank after an effort like that.
Fist, I ment no disrespect. Its just for me there isnt enough information to directly compare these horses. Thats why I have designated (for me onlY) this practice as pure guesswork.
I will say one thing though, in terms of pure pace during a race, and Ive seen and ridden horses for many years, I have never seen anything that can travel as well as this years champion 3 year old at a searing gallop. For me he never looks like they are travelling fast enough for him. What that means in the bigger picture against horses that come from the back and need time to warm in to a race, I dont know.
SHL
Visually a fantastic performance and you have to give great credit to Zenyatta obviously, but with Rip Van Winkle failing to run his race and the proximity of Twice Over like others in this thread I see no reason to suggest she would have beat Sea The Stars.
…
I think it was Brough Scott who pointed out that when he won the Arc, Sea The Stars posted a faster time than Dancing Brave – and accelerated just as quickly – but more tellingly, also pointed out that had Dancing Brave run in STS’s Arc ( on what was similar ground in 1986 and 2009 ), then Dancing Brave would have finished six lenths adrift.
Food for thought ?
…
no not really…so he’d have finished behind La Boum then…lol! poor form by Scott to come out with that nonsense. Sea Bird would have been tailed off under this comparison. utter crap and I’m surprised, frankly, that you seem to go along with it. Not your usual standard Himself
Your last paragraph is about right though, so I shall give mine:-
For those comparing Sea The Stars with Zarkava we should remember that not only Youmzain gives us a clue but also Dar Re Mi and we all know how she ran over her.
Zarkava’s Arc I think, also had more strength in depth, with other winners of 25 Gr. 1 races by the time of the race, including 6 Derby winners from across the world, and probably 7 if New Approach hadn’t shirked the issue. This year’s Arc seemed to have at least 10 no hopers with not many you could make an e.w. case for.
I find Zarkava and Zenyatta remarkably similar, their temperament and style of running and the way they finish their races. Quite extraordinary that they should be contemporaries.
…
I think it was Brough Scott who pointed out that when he won the Arc, Sea The Stars posted a faster time than Dancing Brave – and accelerated just as quickly – but more tellingly, also pointed out that had Dancing Brave run in STS’s Arc ( on what was similar ground in 1986 and 2009 ), then Dancing Brave would have finished six lenths adrift.
Food for thought ?
…
no not really…so he’d have finished behind La Boum then…lol! poor form by Scott to come out with that nonsense. Sea Bird would have been tailed off under this comparison. utter crap and I’m surprised, frankly, that you seem to go along with it. Not your usual standard Himself
Your last paragraph is about right though, so I shall give mine:-
For those comparing Sea The Stars with Zarkava we should remember that not only Youmzain gives us a clue but also Dar Re Mi and we all know how she ran over her.
Zarkava’s Arc I think, also had more strength in depth, with other winners of 25 Gr. 1 races by the time of the race, including 6 Derby winners from across the world, and probably 7 if New Approach hadn’t shirked the issue. This year’s Arc seemed to have at least 10 no hopers with not many you could make an e.w. case for.
I find Zarkava and Zenyatta remarkably similar, their temperament and style of running and the way they finish their races. Quite extraordinary that they should be contemporaries.
Correct me if Im wrong but didnt a 150 to 1 shot finish fourth in Zarkavas arc. what …beaten 3 or 4 lengths. My point at this stage is well made. Depending on who you like best, the more you can choose evidence to support it.
SHL
no not really…so he’d have finished behind La Boum then…lol! poor form by Scott to come out with that nonsense. Sea Bird would have been tailed off under this comparison. utter crap and I’m surprised, frankly, that you seem to go along with it. Not your usual standard Himself
Is Gingertipster your twin brother, Ugly Mare ?
He also said one of my posts was not of its usual standard. Pray tell, what indeed is my usual standard ? Methinks that it must be quite high judging by both back handed compliments.Do please give a poor, defenceless man a break – it can be very tough at the top, as you well know.
I only wish you had viewed the full post in context. The Brough Scott piece – its flaws aside – did have modicum of credence about it. Why? Well the ground was practically similar in 86 and 09, and the race was run at a similarly fast pace. Brough Scott is always banging on about how the thoroughbred is getting faster -though he does concede that horseracing is an inexact science. Too true !
Sea Bird’s Arc on the other hand was run on good to soft ground ( more soft than good) – which, as you know better than most, makes a huge difference to any race time – let alone the Arc.
Anyhow, we both know that Sea Bird would have slaughtered the pair of them without breaking sweat, so we’ll leave it there ( floating in thin air ) and move on…
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I must try harder
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No Zarkava or Zenytta never won by much, neither did Sea The Stars which obviously Fist held against Sea The Stars. Also 1.5f out in the Arc, the race was done and dusted and in a matter of strides he put 2 lengths between him and Stacelita when the others charged at the end he was pretty much being eased down. The most impreessive thing about Sea The Stars was that he twice showed in his career to show a turn of foot twice in a race.
It’s not a case of me holding anything against Sea the stars I say it as it is or at least how is see it.
You say you were impressed by him because he could quicken twice in the same race. Mate all good horses can do that but if you want to be really impressed go and watch a video on U Tube (Secretariat). In the second race show he quickens up like an express train and goes round the entire field to catch the leader just before the home turn. Then his jockey virtually stops him, sits for a dozen strides, then says go again and he leaves the lot of them standing to hack up by 5 lengths.
That’s what separates GREAT!!! horses from very good ones and why Sea the Stars is not and never will be in my top 10.
Do me a favour and go back an watch the last 2 Arcs again only this time take off the rose coloured glasses
Much has been made of the way Sea the Stars quickened up but take a closer look.
Turning for home he’s about 1/2 length in front of Conduit and both Mick Kinane and he and Ryan Moore say go at exactly the same time but while Sea the Stars gets a dream run up the rails, Conduit takes a detour round horses possibly costing him 1/2 length perhaps?…would you agree?
Anyway when Sea the Stars passes the 4f marker stop the video when the commentator says he’s got 6 or 7 lengths to make up….he’s actually 3lengths at most behind Stacelita….stop it again at the 300m line when Sea the Stars front feet hit it. You will clearly see he about 2 1/2 lengths in front of Youmzain the one horse we have as a link between these two very good horses.
The point is you get the impression he’s quickened very dramatically. He has got instant acceleration, definitely more than Conduit and Mick Kinane steals a march on Youmzain which in the end won him the race. But Fallon actually gained about 1/2 length on him by the time he got to the line.
Now go and watch Zarkava and stop the video again and note where Youmzain is in comparison to her. He’s actually in front of her not 2 1/2 lengths behind her like he was Sea the Stars and yet Zarkava just eases past him and leaves him for dead. No raising of the whip….nothing only hands and heels.
That for me is the difference between very good horses and great horses. The ability to not only beat horses like Youmzain but to give them a start and still beat them. I’m pretty sure in my mind had Sea the Stars and Zarkava met she would have done much the same to him as she did to Youmzain. Sea the Stars would have been tougher nut to crack but she looked to have so much speed in reserve I’d have to side with her.
As far as you saying Sea the Stars was being eased in the Arc….When? he got 5 smacks of Kinane the last was just before the 100m mark and he rode him flat out right up until 20 yds from the line.
That’s as good as it gets mate there was nothing left in that old tank after an effort like that.
Fist, I ment no disrespect. Its just for me there isnt enough information to directly compare these horses. Thats why I have designated (for me onlY) this practice as pure guesswork.
I will say one thing though, in terms of pure pace during a race, and Ive seen and ridden horses for many years, I have never seen anything that can travel as well as this years champion 3 year old at a searing gallop. For me he never looks like they are travelling fast enough for him. What that means in the bigger picture against horses that come from the back and need time to warm in to a race, I don’t know.
Now you are cooking with gas! That’s where Sea the Stars greatest strength lies….his ability to travel well at amazingly high speed, not his amazing turn of foot as he simply doesn’t have one. At least not like Zarakava had or Zenyatta for that matter.
He’s just a different type of of horse to those and if you dropped him out at the back 15 lengths behind a horse like Youzmain eg he probably wouldn’t be able to catch him because you would have robbed him of his biggest asset.
I’m pretty sure that had Zarkava nd Sea the Stars met there wouldn’t have been much between them. I would be on Zarkava’s side of the fence because she also traveled very well in her races but had that extra kick that Sea the Stars lacked. I’m not for one minute suggesting she would have beat him by far and it could of course turn out the other way where Sea the Stars just beats her to the line. I am happy to agree it would be very close between them. what I can’t agree with is Timeform rating Sea the Stars 140 and Zarkava 133.
Both beat what was put in front of them every time they were asked, both put up more or less exactly the same performance in the Arc if you take Youzmain who has finished 3rd in 3 Arcs as a form line. Even if you throw Dar Ra Mi into the mix you come up with the same answer..nothing between them.
So either they are both 133 horses or they are both 140 horses but they can’t be both. Everyone raved about Sea the Stars win in the Arc, myself included but Timeform tell us he ran to a 132. So someone has it very wrong somewhere. As I pointed out to a gentleman from Timeform today 140 horses don’t run 7 or 8lbs below their best and win Arcs. At least not in the fashion Sea the stars did.
Bring in Zenyatta at 128 and you get a complete balls up.
That is why I chose to look at these things visually and try and judge where a horse like Sea the Stars fits in among the line of greats.
You say Sea the Stars was a great traveler and I agree he was but Sea Bird II was even better in that department. He moved past class horses effortlessly with total grace and composure. He was pure poetry in motion to watch and when asked to quicken it was like nothing had happened. He remained totally composed and if it wasn’t for the fact he had just left a group of class horses in his wake you would swear he hadn’t extended himself one bit.
I suppose that’s why he’s rated the best of all time by Timeform. Of course they think America is a small Island of the coast of Scotland and even Sea Bird II would have been up against with some of the greats they have produced.
The biggest pity is none of these great horses had anything worth talking about to beat. The said Zenyatta had only beat the same horses all fillies over and over again. So she took on the second highest rated horse in the world and he flops but she did destroy with amazing ease a good bunch of colts.
Poor old Sea the Stars only got a bunch of horses all running at the wrong trip to play with. Then when he gets his toughest test against older horses running at their ultimate trip along come Timeform and give him a lousy 132.
Zarkava went through the same thing as Zenyatta until she was hailed the best filly in 20 years and was given a 133.
I’m pretty sure if any of the above had met a real 137/8 horse at least one of them if not all of them would have raised their game and be deserving of a 139 up to 142 rating.
The one retirement that annoys me most is the lowest rated of the 3 Zenyatta. She’s one of the most incredible racehorses I have ever seen. If a horse was car I swear she has never gone into top gear, it’s like she’s been put into 3rd gear to get to them and before she can change into top gear the race is finished.
It’s such a pity the flat isn’t like the jumps. What a race the Eclipse would have been if those three had ran into each other.
Finally Zenyatta will be remembered for a lot longer than the other two. Not because she was better but because half of America are now learning the latest dance craze "The Zenyatta Shuffle"
Apparently they have made up a montage of her strutting her stuff, they are showing it on TV and everyone is joining. I wonder if Mohammad Ali will sue
ITs not even educated guesswork IMO.
Geez that’s only what 10lb below his best.
He also said one of my posts was not of its usual standard. Pray tell, what indeed is my usual standard ? Methinks that it must be quite high judging by both back handed compliments.
Apparently they have made up a montage of her strutting her stuff, they are showing it on TV and everyone is joining. I wonder if Mohammad Ali will sue - You must be logged in to reply to this topic.