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Ham, what is his new OR? We’re not talking about the 181 RPR, I just couldn’t find the source.
I could imagine it is a bit above 180, maybe at around 183 or 184. They probably used Waiting Patiently and Fox Norton as yardsticks and if you allot them 169 and maybe 166, then you could be heading towards the 180s mark with Cyrname. I still think he’d have to prove it, especially going the other way round as well. So, if he should bypass Cheltenham as already stated by BigG, we might never find out.
On the other hand, if you consider that they went a true test from the off, that almost everybody ran to their expected level of form and that his jumping was superb, then why not give him something close to 180?In fairness, Altior would earn a higher OR if pushed. I can’t find Cyrname’s new official mark either. I only respect RPRs anyway because merit of specific performances is all I’m interested in, not some overall figure. Altior’s best RPR is 183, reckon he could do 190. RPR for Cyrname on Sat is about 7 too low, would give him 188. As said, that’s very much specific to one set of conditions so Cyrname has lots to prove. BDM couldn’t away from his specific set. Historically, I reckon the best performances ever would merit an ‘RPR’ in the region of 195 (Kauto Star and Arkle a couple below that).
Thought i seen an article today saying henwas given a rating higher than altior (bloody social media) but i was only brushing through the internet, im assuming by no one knowing a figure yet that the ratings arent posted yet? Lol
Ruby i understand what he did “technically” warrants a massive rating, but when you go to rate a horse in the upper rank of 175+ you have to take into consideration everything, a horse who is 6/16 or whatever it is and shown sudden improvement arguably out of nowhere, like i said above under certain circumstances cant be given such a rating, i know how the ratinggs system works so im fully aware they can only rate him on what hes “appeared to have done”, but they need to be looking at how they rate horses especially at this level, consistency, ground dependency,track preference possible reasons why opposition did not run to form (which i firmly believe is the case here alongside flu jabs mixed with WP needing the run) etc etc etc
hendo amongst others previous to the EF outbreak have made it clear that it Does Make a difference to a horse when theyv been given one and every horse is different, its taken cyrname 9 chase starts to gather a rating of 165, prior to his last run he wasnt even near 165 either, so a horse relatively “exposed” at the top top level improving 30lbs or so in a matter of two races has to be questioned? Horses improve with experience, sure, but horses like altior etc, they show a level of quality from the moment they start…. thats why until he does this under different circumstances, its another bristol de mai horse IMO.
Funny enough though, i wouldnt not back the horse, all im saying is he should NOT be rated anywhere near altior, put him up a few lbs to 168-169 until he shows it elsewhere, then fine, do what you want with him afterwards henwill have deserved it
Why, when a horse wins a few times at Cheltenham, we never say “well he’ll have to prove it right handed now” or in other venues?
For example, Denman ran twice in open Chase’s right handed and was comfortably beaten on both occasions
Ham, I have to admit that his improvement is a little bit suspect as he’s shown it very late. We’re talking about his 9th and 10th race over fences and he wasn’t anything special in France nor in GB over hurdles.
As you’ve pointed out already, we’re just looking at another Bristol de Mai.
Wexfordman, Denman was multiple winner over hurdles, he won the Berkshire Novices’ Chase before winning the RSA and destroyed them in the Hennessy in his 2nd year as a chaser. Being a multiple G1 winner over fences at the highest level, makes it easier to forgive him his weakness going right-handed. Kempton is just too tight for a lot of high class horses and prior to Cheltenham, there are no 3m G1 chases on such track (the KG being the only exception).
Now Cyrname is winless over hurdles in GB and was just a modest novice chaser. What I am trying to say, is that he’d have to confirm his two impressive Ascot performances, either at Cheltenham or Aintree. Or of course at Punchestown. He is still young and in excellent hands, so why shouldn’t he?Yeah, he hasn’t been given an official rating since the rout. He will not be far away from Altior’s 175 i don’t think. The difference with Cyrname to BDM etc.etc. is that it was expected that BDM would need the ground to be a bog- obviously this seasons proved that wasn’t quite the case. Cyrname probably just needs it right handed.
RPR of 181 which is 2 off Altior’s best.
There will be some excuses given for the placed horses, but while they might not have been at their 100% best, it’s worth noting those horses have run to 174 RPR at the track. So, they have also very good form round the same track.
I wouldn’t say Cyrname is as good as Altior, who would? Altior has racked up a superb record. Cyrname doesn’t look to me like he’d be able to show the longevity Altior has. As an individual performance that was incredible.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Timeform have raised Cyrname eight pounds to 173p; Altior is still their top-rated chaser, on 180p.
So they are suggesting that WP and the others ran to 156 and below on this particular occasion? IMO Timeform is absolute rubbish and has been since inception. It hasn’t got a clue.
Wex my point has nothing to do with cheltenham, thats why i specifically left it out, cheltenham is generally used as a reference because “usually” there the most competetive races. To be rated how cyrname will be rated, he needs to be able to peform to that level in “most” circumstances
Id question anything that doesnt have “backup” if something doesnt show quality, for 9/10 starts then suddenly is the best chaser around within 2 runs, i personally would assume its something else showcasing the “improvement” in this case i believe it to be a bunch of different/small things culminating in the literal sense of conditions being “perfect” for cyrname. Much like BDM, not taking anything away from either cyrname or BDM atall.
If this was no fluke or if connections believed this to be “true” open class on any racecourse any time any place form, cheltenham would not have been a question in the winners enclosure, nicholls is hardly a poor interview, he often is honest and is happy to have a go at journalists when horses are not given credit, but Instead of lets take on anything it was more “right handed, punchestown gold cup….. maybe”
I hope the hood being removed has somehow turned him into altior, superstar performances are great to watch, i just dont believe the form to be anywhere near true and if he skips cheltenham and can only produce this round right handed “autumn ground” tracks given an easy lead, that should be factored into the rating, which is my main point in all this gibberish im speaking its nothing to do with poor cyrname
the bunch finish in behind that isnt sitting right with me atall on this lol
Punchestown is about my favourite of the year, fingers crossed its his next run, i might make the trip over this year so would be good to see him there!
And on timeform; id say theyv been pretty smart with that rating. Id have him about 7lbs behind a real superstar like altior atm.
Cyrname given 178 (+13) which is 3pds ahead of Altior………I was sort of hoping he didn’t immediately gazump Altior if i’m honest.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!178, idiots…. so when he underperforms going left handed they have to start dropping him down
That is not a 178 horse, cannot be throwing around those figures for two freak performances, they have to assess how they rate horses at the upper end of the scale
SO to put this into perspective, glen forsa demolished kalashnikov 19lengths eased in the same fashion cyrname did to his field, kalashnikov is rated 152 and glen forsa was 138 and goes up to 150 after doing it, so still 2lbs behind kalashnikov, when in reality he should be rated about 9lbs higher than kalashnikov but theyv used common sense and though that would probably be too high
But with cyrname common sense has totally and utterly went out the window and theyv gave him a rating only the elite of the absolute elite get to, not even altior has reached yet in 178
Cyrname smashed up horses who on the figures and lines of form in behind looked to run their race.
The time was a COURSE RECORD, backing up what a brilliant performance it was.
It was an elite performance, regardless of whether you think it was a one-off they have to rate him on that performance (aided by his demolition the time before). If he goes and gets beat next time at Punchestown then he will be reduced to below Altior. BDM & Native River were both rated above Altior at one stage and have since been reduced to just below him.
Altior has never broken track records or beaten a 165 rated field 19L basically on the snaff. That’s in part due to his racing style and half due to opportunity, which he hasn’t had. He’s my favourite horse in training and probably ever, but i don’t disagree with Cyrname being rated higher as he’s done it. Altior hasn’t pushed his level to a OR of 180 yet, and the handicapper can’t put him on that level on the potential which most agree is definitely there.
Cyrname hasn’t just improved out of nowhere, Paul has explained in brilliant detail why he’s now blossoming.
End of the day, who really cares? They’re never going to run in handicaps and the prestige of NH ratings is nowhere near as important as it is for the stallions on the flat.
Altior has won multiple championship races, unbeaten in 18 races, he won a grade 2 by 19 lengths in december giving a 155 horse 3lbs without coming off the bridlewhich equates to running around a 180 figure, he beat politogue in the champion chase by further than cyrname did at the weekend, the ratings system is a joke and has no continuity,
Why is glen forsa only rated 150 after fridays performAnce? It should be in the 160s after that? If your basing that on how they rated cyrname?
Track records are nonsense its ground dependant, there only usually broken when the ground is fast and its an unusually dry winter? NH racing its about who copes with that ground the best, more important over flat racingThe ratings on the flat do not matter to any of us but were all interested in it, so its the same as with jumps to any regular fan who is not a stud owner…
Im fully aware they have to rate him on
“That” performance but when your talking about going into the 175+ bracket they must start including in views that are mot necessarily as important at 120/140 rated races,Out of curiosity, how did anyone in behind run there race? What gives you the impression they ran there race? Is that politologues true running, is that aso’s true running? Im not saying they didnt, but how can you be so sure they did? The finished relatively bunched
The explanation for cyrname “blossoming” is a broken record, there always “big babies” who need to “fill there frame” and get more “mature”
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