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Ascot Chase 2019

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Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 64 total)
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  • #1397895
    thewexfordman
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    • Total Posts 1087

    I believe cyrname may very well be second best to Altior, my point simply was that waiting patiently is not a 170 horse. 165 at best in my opinion

    #1397911
    ham
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    • Total Posts 2568

    Christ cyrname is now rated higher than altior

    These handicappers are utterly clueless…

    A horse whos put up two excellent performances over a certain trip at a certain track on certain ground is now rated higher than a multiple group 1 winner over multiple trips on different ground over different tracks against better opposition..

    #1397916
    jackh1092jackh1092
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    • Total Posts 2747

    Ham, i have to admit on this occasion i find it hard not to see him being given a very big rating!

    Where has the rating been released from i can’t find it?

    Twitter: Jackh1092
    Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!

    #1397920
    ham
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2568

    Im definitely not denying that hes ran a big figure and under those circumstances hes capable of doing so again, much like BDM at haydock, but hes done it twice under very specific conditions given a very easy time of it upfront…. not to mention when the inclusion that theres a small possibillity that a few of the runners either needed the run (wp who may very well be overrated also), fox norton may very well have bounced slightly, politologue has not ran his race and a few may have had a very recent flu jab (which doesnt have a massive effect but its always fine margins) nicholls clearly having the best of it on the day also..

    To put the horse higher than altior is nonsense :negative:, im not writing cyrname off but this “improvement” is out of nowhere and after two runs your now rater higher than a multiple championship grade 1 winning horse unbeaten in 3 years… comeeeee on BHA

    #1397936
    Ex RubyLightEx RubyLight
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    • Total Posts 1538

    Ham, what is his new OR? We’re not talking about the 181 RPR, I just couldn’t find the source.

    I could imagine it is a bit above 180, maybe at around 183 or 184. They probably used Waiting Patiently and Fox Norton as yardsticks and if you allot them 169 and maybe 166, then you could be heading towards the 180s mark with Cyrname. I still think he’d have to prove it, especially going the other way round as well. So, if he should bypass Cheltenham as already stated by BigG, we might never find out.
    On the other hand, if you consider that they went a true test from the off, that almost everybody ran to their expected level of form and that his jumping was superb, then why not give him something close to 180?

    #1397939
    GoldenMiller34GoldenMiller34
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    • Total Posts 1182

    In fairness, Altior would earn a higher OR if pushed. I can’t find Cyrname’s new official mark either. I only respect RPRs anyway because merit of specific performances is all I’m interested in, not some overall figure. Altior’s best RPR is 183, reckon he could do 190. RPR for Cyrname on Sat is about 7 too low, would give him 188. As said, that’s very much specific to one set of conditions so Cyrname has lots to prove. BDM couldn’t away from his specific set. Historically, I reckon the best performances ever would merit an ‘RPR’ in the region of 195 (Kauto Star and Arkle a couple below that).

    #1397942
    ham
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    • Total Posts 2568

    Thought i seen an article today saying henwas given a rating higher than altior (bloody social media) but i was only brushing through the internet, im assuming by no one knowing a figure yet that the ratings arent posted yet? Lol

    Ruby i understand what he did “technically” warrants a massive rating, but when you go to rate a horse in the upper rank of 175+ you have to take into consideration everything, a horse who is 6/16 or whatever it is and shown sudden improvement arguably out of nowhere, like i said above under certain circumstances cant be given such a rating, i know how the ratinggs system works so im fully aware they can only rate him on what hes “appeared to have done”, but they need to be looking at how they rate horses especially at this level, consistency, ground dependency,track preference possible reasons why opposition did not run to form (which i firmly believe is the case here alongside flu jabs mixed with WP needing the run) etc etc etc

    hendo amongst others previous to the EF outbreak have made it clear that it Does Make a difference to a horse when theyv been given one and every horse is different, its taken cyrname 9 chase starts to gather a rating of 165, prior to his last run he wasnt even near 165 either, so a horse relatively “exposed” at the top top level improving 30lbs or so in a matter of two races has to be questioned? Horses improve with experience, sure, but horses like altior etc, they show a level of quality from the moment they start…. thats why until he does this under different circumstances, its another bristol de mai horse IMO.

    Funny enough though, i wouldnt not back the horse, all im saying is he should NOT be rated anywhere near altior, put him up a few lbs to 168-169 until he shows it elsewhere, then fine, do what you want with him afterwards henwill have deserved it

    #1397943
    thewexfordman
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    • Total Posts 1087

    Why, when a horse wins a few times at Cheltenham, we never say “well he’ll have to prove it right handed now” or in other venues?

    #1397944
    thewexfordman
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    • Total Posts 1087

    For example, Denman ran twice in open Chase’s right handed and was comfortably beaten on both occasions

    #1397948
    Ex RubyLightEx RubyLight
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    • Total Posts 1538

    Ham, I have to admit that his improvement is a little bit suspect as he’s shown it very late. We’re talking about his 9th and 10th race over fences and he wasn’t anything special in France nor in GB over hurdles.

    As you’ve pointed out already, we’re just looking at another Bristol de Mai.

    Wexfordman, Denman was multiple winner over hurdles, he won the Berkshire Novices’ Chase before winning the RSA and destroyed them in the Hennessy in his 2nd year as a chaser. Being a multiple G1 winner over fences at the highest level, makes it easier to forgive him his weakness going right-handed. Kempton is just too tight for a lot of high class horses and prior to Cheltenham, there are no 3m G1 chases on such track (the KG being the only exception).
    Now Cyrname is winless over hurdles in GB and was just a modest novice chaser. What I am trying to say, is that he’d have to confirm his two impressive Ascot performances, either at Cheltenham or Aintree. Or of course at Punchestown. He is still young and in excellent hands, so why shouldn’t he?

    #1397949
    jackh1092jackh1092
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    • Total Posts 2747

    Yeah, he hasn’t been given an official rating since the rout. He will not be far away from Altior’s 175 i don’t think. The difference with Cyrname to BDM etc.etc. is that it was expected that BDM would need the ground to be a bog- obviously this seasons proved that wasn’t quite the case. Cyrname probably just needs it right handed.

    RPR of 181 which is 2 off Altior’s best.

    There will be some excuses given for the placed horses, but while they might not have been at their 100% best, it’s worth noting those horses have run to 174 RPR at the track. So, they have also very good form round the same track.

    I wouldn’t say Cyrname is as good as Altior, who would? Altior has racked up a superb record. Cyrname doesn’t look to me like he’d be able to show the longevity Altior has. As an individual performance that was incredible.

    Twitter: Jackh1092
    Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!

    #1398159
    GladiateurGladiateur
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    • Total Posts 1266

    Timeform have raised Cyrname eight pounds to 173p; Altior is still their top-rated chaser, on 180p.

    #1398166
    GoldenMiller34GoldenMiller34
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1182

    So they are suggesting that WP and the others ran to 156 and below on this particular occasion? IMO Timeform is absolute rubbish and has been since inception. It hasn’t got a clue.

    #1398170
    ham
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2568

    Wex my point has nothing to do with cheltenham, thats why i specifically left it out, cheltenham is generally used as a reference because “usually” there the most competetive races. To be rated how cyrname will be rated, he needs to be able to peform to that level in “most” circumstances

    Id question anything that doesnt have “backup” if something doesnt show quality, for 9/10 starts then suddenly is the best chaser around within 2 runs, i personally would assume its something else showcasing the “improvement” in this case i believe it to be a bunch of different/small things culminating in the literal sense of conditions being “perfect” for cyrname. Much like BDM, not taking anything away from either cyrname or BDM atall.

    If this was no fluke or if connections believed this to be “true” open class on any racecourse any time any place form, cheltenham would not have been a question in the winners enclosure, nicholls is hardly a poor interview, he often is honest and is happy to have a go at journalists when horses are not given credit, but Instead of lets take on anything it was more “right handed, punchestown gold cup….. maybe”

    I hope the hood being removed has somehow turned him into altior, superstar performances are great to watch, i just dont believe the form to be anywhere near true and if he skips cheltenham and can only produce this round right handed “autumn ground” tracks given an easy lead, that should be factored into the rating, which is my main point in all this gibberish im speaking its nothing to do with poor cyrname

    the bunch finish in behind that isnt sitting right with me atall on this lol

    Punchestown is about my favourite of the year, fingers crossed its his next run, i might make the trip over this year so would be good to see him there!

    And on timeform; id say theyv been pretty smart with that rating. Id have him about 7lbs behind a real superstar like altior atm.

    #1398232
    jackh1092jackh1092
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2747

    Cyrname given 178 (+13) which is 3pds ahead of Altior………I was sort of hoping he didn’t immediately gazump Altior if i’m honest.

    Twitter: Jackh1092
    Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 64 total)
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