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The number of runners that O’Brien has in the same race is unprecedented in racing and not good news in my opinion and I’m afraid the suspicion that the O’Brien operation don’t know who their best horses are and therefore need scattergun entry tactics to try and win is also not great news for the sport in my opinion.
Not least of the issues is that its very hard to assess how 7 Oaks winners from 54 runners stacks up as an achievement….obviously its record breaking territory but 54 runners???? Who knows?
As for whether we really want to see Ryan Moore looking to his right to see if its a ‘team mate’ coming up his inside and then holding his position OR not accordingly,there is no doubt about that being an extremely unhealthy sight.
Some really wild theories out there. I think jealousy of O’brien is clouding people judgement. Nobody moaned when godolphin were dominating. They chose not to buy coolmore horses so the fact they are struggling is entirely their own fault. As for O’brien having the best horses in fact he rarely has the best filly or colt of the year or even in the top 5. Aiden and the lads target certain races and are hugely successful. Was aidens 123 in the arc not brilliant training. The three were not in the top 5 on ratings yet they come in and first second and third. As in all sports the others need to up their game and maybe look at breeding and buying horses from the not so obvious as coolmore have done with sending mares to deep impact.
Yes galileo can’t go on forever but coolmore have loads of top galileo mares to send to deep impact, war front, carravagio so don’t expect them not to be much less successful as they are now. Also although they didn’t win both the 1,000 guineas or the Irish 2,000 or the French 2,000 guineas they were all bred from coolmore stallions thereby increasing their value. Declaration of war has had a group one winner in his first crop already and looks a top stallion in the making and we still have Churchill, Australia and Highland reel etc to see how they get on.
Its the scattergun approach of other breeding operations which is partly to blame for aiden domination plus when coolmore buy out of their usual types like fairyland(their first kodiac bought) they invariably hit the target. Aiden is such a driven guy I can only see him not being top trainer when he slows down. Just enjoy his amazing training skills and coolmore breeding operation. When we don’t have them dominating I’m sure some will moan about the standard of horses dropping.Take them away, what are we left with? Yesterday would have been four or five runner Oaks. It’s not their fault Sheik Mo can’t muster up classic runners that are up to scratch.
A headline from the Racing Post today read, ‘Only six Epsom Classic entrants of 2018 NOT descended from Urban Sea’.
‘Of the 21 horses declared for the two races, 15 feature Urban Sea in their pedigree – six of the nine in the fillies’ Classic on Friday and nine of the 12 colts in the following day’s contest’.
The fact that they have Galileo, has swayed absolutely everything.
For the good of the game, Sheik Mo needs to get into those bloodlines much quicker than what’s happening right now.
Totally agree Micky, I was writing my post (and watching the 2pm from Epsom), so did not see your post.
Could not agree more.
I had been only looking at Wild Illusion’s passage on my previous comment.
At no stage did the coolmore runners box in any other horse in that race.
That’s the problem, TWM.
Under the rules of racing every jockey should be trying to achieve the best possible position for his/her own horse (as far down as prize money goes). If Moore was headed for the stand rail and instead let a fellow Coolmore horse (going better than he was)… Then he is not trying to achieve the best possible position for his horse… And gives an unfair advantage to multi-represented owners. ie If Wild Illusion would’ve been in the same position as Forever Together do you think Ryan would’ve given way? I think not.
That‘s team tactics.
Value Is EverythingI saw no clear evidence of team tactics playing a part in Forever Together’s victory .
Nevertheless , it is naive to think that team tactics do not play a significant role in Coolmore’s mob handed approach in these group 1 races . I have long been an advocate of restricting the number of runners from any given ownership – especially where the classic and group 1 races are concerned.
As for it being Donnacha’s ” turn ” ; who knows , it might well have been . I remember reading an article on the Williams sisters a few years ago , where the author made reference to the fact that in the early years of the girls’ professional career , whereby if Venus had won a title , old man Williams would more than subtly suggest to the elder sister that it was Serena’s’s turn next .
Anyhow, I digress. Team tactics will continue to be a part of Coolmore’s M.O. so long as room for such shenanigans exist. A case in hand , which still rankles with me to this day was Tartan Bearer’s defeat in the 2008 Irish Derby at the hands of team O’Brien . I too was soundly rounded upon when suggesting nefarious play from the Coolmore Mafia – but I still maintain that opinion to this day .
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Well, fair play to Godolphin!
A total of just two runners in the Oaks and the Derby altogether and they finish 1st and 2nd.
Just throwing two darts at the board and getting the job done. Great stuff!Godolphin played coolmore at the own game you see the jockey on dee ex bee look where Wb was and kept Saxon warrior in a pocket fair play to them 👍🏻
Team tactics is not a new concept (see Grundy v Bustino’s King George where Bustino had two pacemakers that took off as if the hounds of hell were chasing them) but it is much more visable today because of the firepower Aiden has to run 4,5 or 6 runners – Goldolphin also did it during their dominant period but not really in the same numbers.
I am not sure that the argument of if it wasn’t for them running their horses we would have poor turnouts is strictly true as I think that more people might be encouraged to run if they knew Aiden wouldn’t be mobbed handed in these races.
The one thing that annoys me (and probably a lot of the infrequent punters) with Aiden is that you are never really sure which of the bigger priced horses are going to give you a run (I like trying to find bigger priced horses) and which are going to be sacrificed for the team. I stay away from backing any of his horses for that very reason.
The only way team tactics stops or even the hint of it is removed would be for the BHA to get really draconian and under the exact letter of the law that every horse running in a race should be ridden to achieve the best position possible start banning and/or fining those who break the rule.
Unfortunately, the practicality of trying to make that works means that it ain’t going to happen because it is a minefield the BHA don’t want to go near with any kind of barge pole.
Godolphin played coolmore at the own game you see the jockey on dee ex bee look where Wb was and kept Saxon warrior in a pocket fair play to them 👍🏻
That’s not “team tactics” though, Folly. That’s good race riding, ie Keeping another horse in in order to achieve the best possible position for your own mount.
What Moore is supposed to have done is (instead of getting the advantageous rail himself) let the same Team Coolmore’s Forever Together (who was going better than he was) have the rail… which was to the detriment of his own filly’s finishing position… And had it been Godolphin’s Wild Illusion would Ryan have let her through? No.
Not that Godolphin have never used team tactics.
Take a look back at Fantastic Light inflicting Galileo’s only turf defeat in the 2001 Irish Champion Stakes. Galileo looked likely to be the first of the protagonists to go on entering the home turn – the decisive moment. Godolphin’s pacemaker Give The Slip went wide, forcing Galileo wider still at the same time as allowing Fantastic Light up the inner; coming from third to leading. A lead the Godolphin horse kept in a hard fought toe to toe battle.It’s just that nowadays it seems Coolmore are by far the most likely to use team tactics.
Value Is EverythingIf the rules of racing were properly adhered to Harry Angel would be 6/4 for the 2018 Golden Jubilee, not 3/1. What if Coolmore choose to sacrifice Intelligence Cross and Spirit Of Valor? ie Not running them to achieve their own particular best position, but instead going unequal fractions – too fast too soon. In order to increase Coolmore’s overall chance of winning by drastically decreasing the favourite’s chance. ie Harry Angel’s temperament means he needs to race prominently, otherwise would take too strong a hold because he wants to keep up… and doesn’t get home. If every runner were trying their best to win that temperament would not be a problem. However, if others sacrifice themselves it means Harry Angel goes unequal fractions himself and therefore doesn’t run to his best. Doesn’t matter to Team Coolmore if Intelligence Cross and Spirit Of Valor both fade, when the held up Merchant Navy goes through the race in equal fractions and comes through to win the race… Beating the much superior animal Harry Angel by using team tactics. Jockeys not doing their bests for their own mounts.
If a pacemaker runs every furlong in the same time ensuring a truly run race then I have no problem with that… Because the pacemakers still have a chance of achieving their best position or even winning.
Going off deliberately too fast should be properly stamped out.
Bad enough trying to work out the chances of each horse given their individual abilities and requirements given conditions, without having to work out how much a horse’s chance is affected by any possible team tactics.
However, 3/1 still imo under-estimates Harry Angel’s chance.
Value Is Everything“Bad enough trying to work out the chances of each horse given their individual abilities and requirements given conditions, without having to work out how much a horse’s chance is affected by any possible team tactics”.
or trying to work out which of half a dozen, if any, will be used as a pacemaker
tbh Tonge, I find predicting who is going to be used as pacemaker/lead fairly straightforward by looking at the horses previous runs. Whoever front ran/raced prominently in previous races is highly likely to be up there again…. And if one of that type of horse is an outsider it’s even more likely. That’s why I said about previous prominent runners Intelligence Cross and Spirit Of Valor and not their first string Merchant Navy or the hold up horse Washington DC. In this race I’d expect the outsider Intelligence Cross (who’s done the job before) to act as Pacemaker with Spirit Of Valor (who may well be their second string and who usually races prominently) also being prominent/bustling up the favourite. Where horses race can usually be fairly well predicted in any Group race.
Value Is EverythingBallydoyle can be bad at team tactics – last year’s Guineas when Seamie turned round to see where Churchill was before letting him up his inside one example but the pacemaker angle I can’t agree with.
Pacemakers set a true pace, allowing 99/100 the best horse to win the race. Falsely run G1 crawls like they do in France would turn me off the sport tbh – look at that French Derby yesterday for example. The odd occasion they go far too fast but that’s not pacemakers as the rest of the field basically ignore them, and generally these are the 80/1 rags in the races that people 99/100 know are the pacemakers.
Friday’s Oaks didn’t seem anything ‘wrong’ for me – MW was struggling to go with the increased pace regardless of Ryan’s correction to her. WI was beat fair and square also – Buick put himself in a pocket in the first place, he knew there was multiple Ballydoyle horses, only himself to blame if there had been an issue. Go back to 2009, Ballydoyle tried to get STS beat multiple times but Kinane was too good for them and wise to it – that’s race riding and part of the game.
Got no trouble with pacemakers, Kev… As long as they do not deliberately go at too strong a pace.
eg If a jockey on a pacemaker goes off at a genuinely strong mile pace in a mile race (equal fractions) – no problem.
In contrast:
If a jockey on a pacemaker goes off at a genuine 5 furlong pace when racing at a mile (unequal fractions) – in order to get an opponent’s horse pulling… The jockey is not trying to achieve the best possible finishing position for his own horse. That is against the rules of racing.Value Is Everything
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