[wit]

as a measure of the impact all this is having, according to the SMH:

Bondi Beach had 3000 people yesterday versus 25,000 normally.

North Cronulla 100 versus 5000.

North Wollongong 200 versus 2000.

Nobbys Beach, Newcastle 20 versus 300.

<br>best regards

wit

[wit]

Couple of very interesting articles in the Sydney Morning Herald.

Extracts:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/yea … 11519.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>"If I walk around the streets, publicly promoting the fact that I am Lebanese and looking tough, there’s going to be smoke preceding me even before I turn the corner. It’s like a cowboy mentality, and people get an adrenaline rush," he said.

While very few Australian men of Lebanese background choose to take advantage of it, a minority lacking pride in anything else revel in the power.

"The one opportunity, the one forum, that gives them a sense of pride and meaning is to congregate with other people, in the safety of numbers, and pretend they are king of the streets," Mr Wakim said.

Radical clerics have exacerbated the power of victimhood, cashing in on the fight against terrorism. Their message is that "You’re the victims; Australia is racist", suggested Mustapha Kara-Ali, a representative on the Muslim Community Reference Group, the Government’s advisory body.

"The youth are being trained on this message and so they can easily identify with a black minority in America that were oppressed and victimised by the ‘white man’."

An isolationist message is often reinforced at home and, once an attitude of rebellion takes root, it can spiral out of control.

Silma Ihram, Principal of Noor Al Houda Islamic College in Strathfield, believes some parents are really struggling with their children. In Lebanon, family control is maintained under the watchful eyes of the wider community. "Here the kids might be dealing drugs up the street [and no one knows]. It’s a completely different environment.

"They’re not doing the [Islamic religious] practice and they haven’t got the values, and all they have left is the anger……they become like mini-terrorists and the deeper they go, the harder it is to reform them."

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<br>http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-great-divide-takes-some-understanding/2005/12/16/1134703611534.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"We got north Lebanese, disproportionately Shiite, mostly peasants, mostly uneducated, who didn’t want to be here in the first place," Kennedy says. "They come from a very patriarchal culture. They don’t go in for the greater good. Their families have survived a brutal civil war. They are tribal. They are aggressive. They are in your face. And they are not grateful.

<br>……though the Lebanese Muslim community is about 40,000 – just 1 per cent of Sydney’s 4 million population – Kennedy believes the social gulf has drifted to the point of social danger: "The mismanagement of this situation by politicians, lawyers and police has taken us to the point where we could see violent civil disorder on a scale we have not seen before. The minute you talk tough, and these Lebanese guys lose face, they only know one thing to do. Retaliate. You saw it immediately after the Cronulla riot.

<br>…..While the violence at Cronulla was racist mob hysteria, it was also alcohol-fuelled, random and spontaneous, and there have been some conspicuous apologies.

In contrast, the response from the hard men in Lakemba, Punchbowl and Bankstown, was co-ordinated, armed, premeditated and took the violence to another level.

On Monday night, men in cars assembled at Punchbowl Park, then drove in convoy, with hazard lights on, to Cronulla, where the convoy proceeded in formation down both sides of the Kingsway. A megaphone was brought along to challenge people to come out and fight. It was a message. The police do not control the streets.

The police, by accident or design, were nowhere to be seen during this militia-style show of force. It was the latest in a long line of embarrassments.

Tim Priest, another police whistleblower, warned in a speech delivered on November 12, 2003, two years before the Cronulla riots and the Paris riots: "In hundreds upon hundreds of incidents police have backed down to Middle Eastern thugs and taken no action and allowed incidents to go unpunished. I stress the unbelievable influence that local politicians and religious leaders played in covering up the real state of play in the south-west …

My prediction is that within 10 years there will be no-go areas in south-western Sydney, just like Paris ……

…….."The young police know that if they ever go in hard, they will get no back-up from the courts, or the police hierarchy. They may be charged with assault and accused of being racist. So we have a static, scared, reactive police force that is driven by statistics, not arrests. That’s why you’re starting to see vigilante-type thinking."

Over the past week, a series of newspaper reports have quoted girls in Cronulla saying aggression and sexual innuendo from young Lebanese men have been routine for years at Cronulla.

A middle-aged Lebanese man, Peter, who has regularly visited friends at Cronulla, told the story of how they would be surrounded by dozens of young Lebanese men who would tell them, "This is our spot", and intimidate them out of the picnic area.

Another police officer, a detective sergeant, says: "In reality, the sexual assaults and harassment are much higher than are reported. Many girls don’t have the courage to face these young men. They are ruthless; they have no regard for the law." There have been thousands of incidents of girls being called "sluts" or similar at Cronulla and elsewhere over the past decade. This sense of loss of civil safety was the context of the size of the Cronulla demonstration last Sunday.

"You can’t beat these people into submission," says Kennedy. "It will empower the most violent. The police can only keep a lid on things. This is about politics. Politicians can’t expect the rank and file to sort out the messes they have been creating…… This is a symptom of something much bigger."

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

trouble down at Cronulla beach between young Middle Eastern Aussies and young Anglo Aussies.

in a nutshell:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cronulla was possibly Australia’s biggest racist protest since vigilante miners killed two Chinese at Lambing Flat in 1860.

Yesterday’s violence had been brewing for months. It came to a head last weekend when some Lebanese Australian men attacked members of the North Cronulla Surf Life Saving Club after they asked the visitors to stop playing soccer because it was disturbing other beach users.

"Steely" – who did not want to identify himself "for fear the Lebs will come and shoot up my joint during the week" – said his children had been scared by Lebanese Australians coming in from the western suburbs.

"I’ve got a four-year-old girl and a boy who’s 11, and they see these b*****d

s come here and stand around the sea baths ‘cos their women have got to swim in clothes and stuff, or they see them saying filthy things to our girls," he said.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/ … 51620.html

youth thing, racial thing, or what ?

<br>best regards

wit

[wit]

On the Scriptural side of things, this quite detailed exposition by a Jesuit (it was written a while before the internet so ignore the url)

http://www.womenpriests.org/gender/mcneil.asp

concludes that what the Bible opposes is the anal sex act (whether between homs or hets) –  arsenokoitai in New Testament Greek – but that (being pre-Freud) it says nothing about homosexuality in the sense of an inversion:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>….strictly speaking neither the Bible nor Christian tradition knew anything of homosexuality as such; both were concerned solely with the commission of homosexual acts. Homosexuality is not, as commonly supposed, a kind of conduct, but a psychological condition. It is important to understand that the genuine homosexual condition – or inversion, as it is often termed – is something for which the subject can in no way be held responsible.   In itself it is morally neutral. Like the condition of heterosexuality, however, it tends to find expression in specific sexual acts; and such acts are subject to moral judgment.

We must distinguish, then, between the invert and the pervert. The pervert is not a genuine homosexual; rather, he is a heterosexual who engages in homosexual practices, or a homosexual who engages in heterosexual practices. This distinction between the condition of inversion and the behavior of perversion is indispensable for a correct interpretation of biblical and traditional sources.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Not sure this liberal view would necessarily be accepted by the Pope though –  or indeed by the African side of the current threatened schism in the Anglican communion on the matter (don’t know if the new Archbishop of York has expressed a view).

any way up, stevedvg, no positives for the back nine with a lady.

best regards

wit

[wit]

davidbrady

the really curious thing though, is that while your link mocks the book of Leviticus, yet the pro-gays behind the Civil Partnership Act have faithfully stayed with  Leviticus 18 in repeating its prohibited degrees of consanguinity for a "gay marriage".

Assuming its accepted that there’s no danger of gays procreating with each other, incestuously or otherwise, its interesting that nonetheless they feel the need to claim the respectability of such rules.

with no shortage of gays attracted to the Christian church, it does raise the question whether in the main they in fact feel themselves to be lost souls?

best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

Hi Steve

i’m sure the government will be the last to admit to another piece of "gesture" legislation with no coherent underlying policy.

still, it’s an ill wind that blows nobody any good – i can see tax advisers having a field day with the loopholes.

best regards

wit  

[wit]

Could you good folk please explain a few things to me about the Civil Partnership Act?

<br>First, if its supposed to be the gay equivalent of marriage, why is there no requirement that the civil partnership be consummated ?

<br>Second, why is a civil partnership prohibited between virtually the same levels of consanguinity as a marriage?  

<br>Third – which is the effect and apparently the purpose of the Act judging by all the self-congratulatory basking in "right-on" credentials of its supporters (even if the sex part has not actually been put in writing and so left the odd loophole) – why should the tax system be subsidising domesticated sexual relationships, whether they’re between hets or homs?      

Relationships which carry  greater risk of domestic violence than among those not in such relationships?

<br>And why is no similar pension treatment / similar exemptions from inheritance tax / capital gains tax made available eg for a brother caring for his terminally ill sister , or a child for a parent or vice versa ?

<br>Fourth, what has the Civil Partnership Act got to do with kids?

Even in a marriage, for a long time now things like support/ adoption/ treatment of kids has been made separate from  the support/relationship/ rights as between the spouses themselves –  the two don’t get mixed together.    Adoption continues to be  regulated by  the Adoption Act.

<br>many thanks

best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

There’s an Australian victim of July 7 very unhappy to find himself on the front page of The Sun, with the paper putting words in his mouth in support of Blair:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Aussie … 75060.html

best regards

wit

[wit]

stevedvg,

your points were well taken by Mr Dalrymple, who said elsewhere in his piece:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

According to Le Monde, they marched in homage to the deceased on the day following the rioting.  

Were they heroes of the resistance,  then?   If so, resistance to what?  

To social security, social housing, and the mobile phones with which some of the rioters were reported to have called in reinforcements from elsewhere?  

To the inflexibility of France’s labour laws, which protect those already in employment but prevent the unemployed from finding work?

The deaths were a tragedy to those who loved them but……it is difficult to see anything in their conduct worthy of homage.

How widespread is disorder in the suburbs of French towns and cities?  The interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy has built a career on emphasising its scope.   In an interview with Le Monde he once said that 9,000 police vehicles had been stoned in the previous 10 months, and that between 20 and 40 cars were burnt out every night in France.  Certainly, the latter figure is not an exaggeration: every suburb worth its salt is littered with the carcasses of burnt-out cars.  If Britain is the car-theft champion of the world, France is the vehicle-arson champion.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

All of this written very early on in events and before they became "news".  

The theme of his short article is actually how the French decry anything Anglo-Saxon but end up following it,  before getting into "they even have small riots like ours".

Not sure what he’ll say to the way things have now developed but he ended his piece with:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In defence of French social underdevelopment, however, it must be said that arson is much less likely to bother members of the French bourgeoisie.   In France, your car will not be burnt out unless you are at least teetering on the edge of relative poverty…..Britain is a much more egalitarian society than France, whose criminality is so much better zoned.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<br>Of course, all kinds of interests outside, as well as within, France are now coming to put their own spin on events.    

The BBC review of Mid-East press has comments from Turkish and Iranian papers which seem to say rather more about the commenters than anything else:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 418256.stm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Iran’s Hamshahri

Following recent riots in France, social experts opined that these incidents could have been predicted. Discrimination in France – particularly pressures over immigrants and Muslims – have fanned the flames of discrimination while Jews enjoy total freedom in the country. Such incidents are expected in other Western countries which are based on secular values.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  

plus ca change

best regards

wit

[wit]

Interestingly, there’s a piece about Clichy-sous-Bois by the inner-city chronicler Theodore Dalrymple tucked away quietly in last week’s Spectator, clearly written before they became any kind of news beyond the immediate locality:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It’s a suburb of Paris, social housing territory, and social housing, in modern societies at least, means antisocial behaviour.  Such areas are, in effect, riots waiting to happen.

The cause of the riot…was the death of two youths and the severe burns of another.  They apparently formed members of a group of 15 who were peacefully breaking into a workshop when the police arrived and arrested six of them.

They fled and took refuge in an electricity transformer by climbing over two walls complete with eloquent notices that millions of volts were bad for you, where two of them were electrocuted to death and one suffered severe burns.  The two dead were of Turkish and Malian extraction..Perhaps the new methods of teaching had left them unable to read, at least at speed.

The police felt it politic, in order to calm the situation, to issue a statement to the effect that the three  were not being cased ‘physically’ at the time of their sanctuary in the installation of Electricite de France – but, as the good book says, the guilty fleeth where no man pursueth.

Alas, the police’s sensitivity did not calm the situation.  Rioting at the terrible injustice done to the three youths ensued, kindergartens and schools were stoned in natural consequence of their martyrdom, and 28 cars were burnt.  The fact that the cars probably belonged to poor inhabitants of the quartier did not inhibit the rioters, or even give them pause; in such a situation it is self-expression that counts.  

A shot was fired at one of the armoured vehicles carrying the forces of law if not of order, and pierced its armour: a testimony to the increasing fire-power of the slums.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

It goes on to say that the imam of the area said that arrests there were often strong-armed and that therefore youths felt humiliated by them.  However you have to wonder how many of them come quietly with "it’s a fair cop, guv".

After noting that "they marched in homage to the deceased on the day following the rioting", he observes that "the deaths of the two were a tragedy to those who loved them, of course, and it is tragic also that youths feel that breaking into workshops gives meaning to life, but even allowing for the impetuosity of youth its difficult to see anything in their conduct worthy of homage".

It has echoes of those parents in the UK who complain that a great injustice has happened when their kids steal a car, speed it, and kill themselves in a predictable crash.   In their eyes it genuinely all becomes the fault of the police and society: no sense of free will or their own responsibility in any of it.

More the consequence of  social decomposition and creating and sustaining a (now not so) underclass, than a racial issue.  

You’ll see it every day in inner-city magistrates courts, just as in the inner-city hospitals and prisons where Mr Dalrymple practises his day job.    

best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

…and beware the "after the event" texts:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/11/ … 81792.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Superglued genitals: she’s stuck on you

A US man is suing his ex-girlfriend in for more than $40,600 for supergluing his genitals to his abdomen.

Kenneth Slaby of Greensburg, Pennsylvania, broke up with Gail O’Toole in 1999, after dating for 10 months.

Slaby then began dating someone else but, according to the lawsuit, O’Toole invited him over to her home on May 7, 2000, where he fell asleep.

When he woke up, Slaby found that O’Toole had glued his genitals to his abdomen, glued his buttocks together and spelled out a profanity on his back in nail polish.

O’Toole allegedly told him it was payback for their breakup, and he had to walk almost 2 kilometres to a petrol station to call for help.

"This was not just some petty domestic squabble," Slaby’s lawyer Grey Pratt said.

O’Toole had pleaded guilty to misdemeanour assault and served six months’ probation, but her ex-boyfriend is now suing for her damages.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

best regards

wit

[wit]

Hi Jim JTS

The Education Committee of the Scottish Assembly carrying out the Inquiry into the Purposes of Scottish Education has already warned that :

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

…too much attention to Scottish identity could be narrowing…..Scots be brought to see people in other parts of the world as their equals: …..not to be ….patronising

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/busin … 1-02.htm#2

If that signals the end for Wha’s Like Us? and the North-Korean-style history books north of the border which seem to inform it, I’m sure we both agree that can only be a good thing :biggrin:

Best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

Jim JTS,

Just to show that this forum is unlike others and that there’s a first time for everything:

<br>CORRECTED PER BLOCK CAPITALS:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Wha’s Like Us?, by  T Anderson Cairns.

The average Englishman in the home he calls his castle, slips into his national costume-a shabby raincoat- patented by Chemist Charles Macintosh from Glasgow, Scotland. <br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MAYBE MACINTOSH CLAIMED THE PATENT,  BUT HE TOOK THE TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MAC FROM THE ENGLISH INVENTOR THOMAS HANCOCK, FOUNDER OF THE BRITISH RUBBER INDUSTRY.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve … lastic.htm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Enroute to his office he strides along the English lane, surfaced by John Macadam of Ayr, Scotland. <br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>NOT SO.  

MACADAMIZED ROADS (IE ONES WITH SMALL STONES) WERE ADEQUATE FOR USE BY HORSES AND CARRIAGES OR COACHES, BUT THEY WERE VERY DUSTY AND DID NOT HOLD UP TO HIGHER SPEED MOTOR VEHICLE USE.

PASSING A TARWORKS  IN 1901, E PURNELL HOOLEY OBSERVED A BARREL OF TAR HAD SPILLED ON THE ROADWAY, AND IN AN ATTEMPT TO REDUCE THE MESS, GRAVEL HAD BEEN DUMPED ON TOP OF IT. THE AREA WAS REMARKABLY DUST-FREE COMPARED TO THE SURROUNDING ROAD.

THIS OBSERVATION INSPIRED HOOLEY TO DEVELOP AND PATENT TARMAC IN BRITAIN AND, LATER, THE US.  

HE CALLED HIS COMPANY TAR MACADAM (PURNELL HOOLEY’S PATENT) SYNDICATE LIMITED, BUT UNFORTUNATELY HE HAD TROUBLE SELLING HIS PRODUCT AS HE WAS NOT A VERY COMPETENT BUSINESSMAN.

HIS COMPANY WAS SOON BOUGHT OUT BY THE WOLVERHAMPTON MP, SIR ALFRED HICKMAN, THE OWNER OF A STEELWORKS WHICH PRODUCED LARGE QUANTITIES OF WASTE SLAG.

THE TARMAC COMPANY WAS RELAUNCHED AND BECAME AN IMMEDIATE SUCCESS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarmac

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>He drives an English car fitted with tyres invented by John Boyd Dunlop, Veterinary Surgeon of Dreghorn, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

NOT SO.  

APART FROM THERE BEING FEW ENGLISH CARS (AND NO SCOTS CARS), DUNLOP HAD MOVED TO BELFAST IN 1867 AND DID NOT INVENT THE TYRE UNTIL 1888.  

ALL DEVELOPMENT AND INVENTION OF THE PNEUMATIC TYRE WAS BY JOHN BOYD DUNLOP OF BELFAST, NORTHERN IRELAND.

http://www.ulsterhistory.co.uk/johndunlop.htm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>At the office he receives the mail bearing adhesive stamps invented by John Chalmers, Bookseller and Printer of Dundee, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

NOT SO.

THE FIRST ADNESIVE POSTAGE STAMP – THE PENNY BLACK – WAS INVENTED BY ROWLAND HILL, AN ENGLISH SCHOOLMASTER.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve … stamps.htm

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>During the day he uses the telephone invented by Alexander Graham Bell, born in Edinburgh, Scotland.<br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

BELL WON THE RACE TO THE PATENT OFFICE BY A FEW HOURS – BUT ELISHA GRAY OF CHICAGO HAD INVENTED IT INDEPENDENTLY AT THE SAME TIME.  

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve … ephone.htm

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br> At home in the evening his daughter pedals her bicycle invented by Kirkpatrick Macmillan, Blacksmith of Thornhill, Dumfriesshire, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

NOT SO.

MANY INVENTORS OF THE BICYCLE BEFORE AND AFTER HIM.

HE INVENTED THE FIRST WITH FOOT PEDALS, BUT NEVER PATENTED IT AND IT WASN’T HIS VERSION THAT CAUGHT ON.

THE MODERN BICYCLE WAS INVENTED IN 1860 BY ERNEST MICHAUX.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve … icycle.htm

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/invent … ycle.shtml

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>He watches the news on T.V. an invention of John Logie Baird of Helensburgh, Scotland ……..<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

NO.

BAIRD WAS ONE OF SEVERAL INVOLVED IN MECHANICAL TELEVISION, WHICH WAS QUICKLY SUPPLANTED BY ELECTRONIC TELEVISION.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve … Television

THE INVENTOR OF MODERN ELECTRONIC TV IS PHILO TAYLOR FRANSWORTH, FROM UTAH.  

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae408.cfm

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>…..and hears an item about the U.S. Navy founded by John Paul Jones of Kirkbean, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

WELL……A FOUNDER, PERHAPS – BUT AGAIN ONLY SOME TIME AFTER HE HAD EMIGRATED TO THE US.

http://www.usa-patriotism.com/tribute/h … pjones.htm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Nowhere can an Englishman turn to escape the ingenuity of the Scots…..<br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

…..FOR MAKING DODGY CLAIMS TO PROMOTE A NATIONALISTIC AGENDA?  

MOREOVER, CLAIMS WHICH IT IS UNLIKELY THAT MANY OF THE EXCELLENT INDIVIDUALS NAMED WOULD THEMSELVES HAVE MADE IN SUCH TERMS?

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>He has by now been reminded too much of Scotland and in desperation he picks up his Bible, only to find that the first man mentioned in the good book is a Scot-King James VI-who authorised its translation. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<br>ONE  TRANSLATION AMONG MANY  –  THOUGH ADMITTEDLY THE ONLY ONE TO  OMIT THE WORD "NOT" FROM THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT (THOU SHALT COMMIT ADULTERY).

http://www.slipups.com/items/901.html

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>He could take to drink but the Scots make the best in the world. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

YOU MEAN IF YOU EXCLUDE THE "E" FROM THE NAME ?

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>He could take a rifle and end it all but the breech-loading rifle was invented by Captain Patrick Ferguson of Pitfours, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

…..BIT OF A STRETCH THAT ONE: LONG OVERTAKEN AND A FOOTNOTE IN HISTORY.

LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR THE INVENTORS OF TODAY’S GUNS.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blgun.htm

http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/o … owning.htm

http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinv … volver.htm

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>If he escaped death, he could find himself on an operating table injected with Penicillin discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming of Darvel, Scotland, <br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

NOT SO.

IT WAS ACTUALLY FIRST DISCOVERED BY FRENCHMAN ERNEST DUCHESNE IN 1896.

IT WAS REDISCOVERED IN 1928 BY SIR ALEXANDER FLEMING OF  ST MARYS HOSPITAL LONDON.

HIS REDISCOVERY SIMILARLY THREATENED TO MEAN NOTHING, AND FOR 10 YEARS IT LAY ON THE SHELF UNTIL HOWARD FLOREY  AND ERNST CHAIN DEVELOPED IT, AND ANDREW MOYER PATENTED IT TO GET IT INTO MASS PRODUCTION.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve … cillin.htm

<br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>and given Chloroform, and anaesthetic discovered by Sir James Young Simpson, Obstetrician and Gynaecologist of Bathgate, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

NOT SO.

IT WAS DISCOVERED IN JULY 1831 BY AMERICAN PHYSICIAN SAMUEL GUTHRIE (1782-1848); AND INDEPENDENTLY A FEW MONTHS LATER BY FRENCHMAN EUGÈNE SOUBEIRAN (1797-1859) AND JUSTUS VON LIEBIG (1803-73) IN GERMANY. CHLOROFORM WAS NAMED AND CHEMICALLY CHARACTERISED IN 1834 BY JEAN-BAPTISTE DUMAS (1800-84). ITS ANAESTHETIC PROPERTIES WERE NOTED EARLY IN 1847 BY MARIE-JEAN-PIERRE FLOURENS (1794-1867).

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/imag … roform.htm

WHAT SIMPSON DID WAS TO PERFORM – ON HIMSELF – THE FIRST NARCOSIS USING CHOLOROFORM, AND THEN INTRODUCE ITS USE INTO OBSTETRICS AND OTHER AREAS.

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/chloroform.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Out of the anaesthetic he would find no comfort in learning that he was as safe as the Bank of England founded by William Paterson of Dumfries, Scotland. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

YOU CAN HAVE THAT ONE – THOUGH AGAIN IT HAPPENED FAR FROM SCOTLAND AND HE WAS OUT WITHIN A YEAR.

http://www.nndb.com/people/625/000096337/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Perhaps his only remaining hope would be to get a transfusion of guid Scottish blood which would entitle him to ask-

Wha’s Like Us? <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

There seem to be two sides to Scotland – the  loud ‘Wha’s like us’ mentality ("chip on both shoulders") on the one hand,  and the quietly confident and IMO more attractive ‘We’re a’ Jock Tamson’s bairns’ mentality on the other.  <br>It seems a pity when those of the former persuasion seek to hijack the names and reputations of the latter.

off to get my tin hat now.

best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

Ian

Do you accept that there are some things about which you know more than me, and others about which I know more than you ?

If so, do you accept that on some things your opinion will be better informed than mine, and that on others mine will be better informed ?

If so, why couldn’t an appreciation of how folk think in a particular part of the world not be one of those things?      

And why is following that through condescending ?    

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>I continue to agree with the sentiments expressed by steve in his last posting, which pretty much mirror those of Jason Burke of The Observer on Newsnight last night. <br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<br>You mean this Jason Burke?:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Why I believe this war is right

Jason Burke, who has reported from many world conflict zones, argues that the Iraqi people deserve to be saved

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/sto … 61,00.html

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<br>The problem with your "legitimate beefs, illegitimate means" approach is this:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>It is a mistake to call terrorists “Islamistsâ€ÂÂ

[wit]

Grasshopper

"Condescending..patronising.. snippy…high-handed …more-knowledgeable-than-thou attitude"

If that’s how you find my posting, then there’s not much I can do about it, other than to say it was responding to some very strongly-expressed opinions and conclusions which to me did not seem to be very well informed, on the basis of my own experience of the region and its nationals over the last 20 years.

Do I think I’m better informed than those opinions?  On this, actually yes I think I am, from personal experience rather than just book-smarts.

Am I trying to stop those opinions being expressed ?  No – I’m trying to put them right, just as they (and you) are trying to put me right.

Am I as a result more condescending / patronising / snippy than anyone else ?   I hope not – I don’t think I’ve ever played the man rather than the ball on here, including on this topic, but show me which bit if you think otherwise, and I’ll look again and happily apologise if I can see it.

On the substance of the intervention in Iraq, we’re at one that its all about oil – nobody but the indigenous folk will have any interest in the Middle East after the oil has gone, other than as regards the shipping routes passing by.

Since its all about oil, its also about who has their eyes set on that oil, and through what means.  

My reading is that the great unspoken element in the long game (and they are very good at playing it) is China, and that they have three things to play with – their (increasing) military manpower, their material wealth, and their distribution of nuclear capability.    In this context its interesting that Iran and North Korea were the other two named in the Axis of Evil.

I don’t buy the "spread democracy for its own sake" line.

I think what the US has done in going into Iraq is to basically set it up to re-run what happened when the British first put Iraq together in 1920 from the Ottoman provinces of Basra, Baghdad and Mosul.

I think this is their chess-game response to how they read the long game with China and the medium game with Iran.

best regards

wit <br>

[wit]

Ian, Steve

From your postings, both of you have bought the line that what’s happening is "Muslims vs the West".    

It isn’t – as most Muslims in the Middle East and around the world are trying to get across.

They are deeply insulted by statements that there is " widespread tacit support/sympathy from Muslim communities around the world for the remaining hardliners".

Ian thinks that "the Iraqis – the insurgents aside – are a cowed people, formerly cowed by Saddam Hussain, and cowed now by the occupying US and UK armies"

Steve says that <br>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>"cease to station your troops in the middle east and Afghanistan and stop propping up dictatorships and puppet governments in what are accepted as being Arab countries".

…..if we were seen to be taking away these degradations and treating muslims like they have the right to choose their own path rather than living under our thumbs, Bin Laden and his men might find less support and fewer places to hide<br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

These are the kind of "frog in a bucket" views that delight the radicalists.

I’ll say it again – the issues for the ordinary peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan are not – and never have been – "muslim vs infidel", however much the radicalists (including the Taleban) love to put that overlay on them.

They are rather ethnic, tribal and nationalist issues, and the economic fallout from those issues.

Steve, I don’t know who you think accepts Afghanistan as an Arab country – Pushtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkoman, Hazara, Aimaq, Baluchi and Nuristani yes: but the only Arabs are the Al Quaeda imports.

Iraq is mainly Arab – as to 75% – but you’ll also find 18% are Kurds, and the other 7% are made up of Assyrians, Turkoman, Armenians, Persians and a number of smaller ethnic groups (including currently maybe up to 250,000 Coalition troops).    

Ian seems to think the US/UK armies are operating a regime of terror on the Iraqi population of 25 million who are united in being cowed.   That seems a rather unique interpretation of the popular Iraqi support for trying to get a democracy going, getting your own army and police force going, getting your electricity and water back, your oil economy going, all the while having to battle the attacks coming at you from …..er, the US and UK army???   Or is it that the US/UK armies are forcing an unwilling 25 million folk at gunpoint into getting going their own government / army / police / electricity / water / economy, etc ??

<br>The reality is that there is a very big reason why, since 1967, any Arab group or regime that has wished to give itself a "revolutionary" or "progressive" image has had to present itself as opposed to the West in general and the US in particular.

It has nothing to do with religion.    What its to do with is the deeply hurt pride, something that resulted across the Arab world from the exposure of the hollowness of Arab nationalist claims in the deeply ignominious defeat suffered by the Arab armies – and most particularly all of those that failed to show up – in 1967 against Israel.  

Iraq for example sent only a token force because its crack troops had to stay at home to guard Saddam against a coup – and that story was widely repeated in the region.    

It gave the lie to the mantra of "all Arab brothers" – something that was always mainly lip service, but which had never previously been so humiliatingly shown to be such.   It was only at that time that the US became widely identified with Israel – the US was and remains the face-saving scapegoat.

<br>Steve, you may see an Arab world of  "dictatorships and puppet governments" propped up by the US.  

In my experience the peoples of the Arab world don’t think that way for one second.   They know the volatility of their world and the way that – irrespective of what the US or anyone else may want – it is their own national, tribal, ethnic make-ups that establish (and dis-establish) the rulers of their respective states.      

Don’t confuse the rhetoric with the underlying reality – the locals certainly don’t.

Eyes wide open, ears tight shut.

best regards

wit<br>

[wit]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>“Our message to you is clear, strong and final: there will be no salvation until you withdraw from our land, stop stealing our oil and resources and end support for infidel [Arab] rulers,â€ÂÂ

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