Forum Replies Created
- Posts
TC wasn’t the best 2-miler but he was electric across a fence, and most especially down the Railway Straight at Sandown. But he was the horse that first got me addicted to 2-mile chasers as a show jumping mad kid.
Dessie was as bold in terms of where he’d take off from, but he wasn’t as fast through the air.
Pendil – if my memory serves – was somewhere between the two. Faster through the air than Des but not quite so bold (?mad) as either Des or TC in taking on a fence. The other one in this league was The Captain – Mad – Christy!
80 runs says it all about TC’s constitution and soundness. His third ‘Tingle Creek’ came when he was 12. As LD73 says, that record’s as much a comment on current levels of longevity, durability and soundness at the top level.
What I hadn’t realised until now was TC’s connections: his sire (Goose Creek) is half to none other than Milan Mill – dam of Mill Reef. Is it any wonder that he became a significant NH influence when there’s jumping like this in those lines?
For those who are interested in the German system, this article (quite old now), retrieved from Victor Sheahan’s excellent blog (Montjeu.com), makes clear just how stringent the requirements are for TB stallions in Germany. Breeding stock have to pass on performance and conformation but also must have a racing history free of artificial medication and also be free of inheritable disease:
https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/2147/country-where-stallions-who-have-ever-had-lasix-are-disqualified-breeding/Try applying that to many of the stallions that command large books in GB and Ireland! How many of them would get to the minimum standard?! Why are they doing this? Because they are trying to breed racehorses which stay the classic distance of 1.5 miles, not hot-housed yearlings for the sales ring, or ‘fragile speed’, and they reward breeders for that through the prize money system. It’s the same approach as underpins continental European sports horse breeding programmes. By the by, there are some interesting lines in there about Northern Dancer line stallions …
On ‘fragility’: a memory from way back. This was one Henry Cecil being asked on I think C4 racing about how the TB had changed since the days when he started training – I think it was around the time when he had horses like Bosra Sham, so 1990s. ‘They’ve become more fragile; harder to train’. That was the first version of mixing Raise a Native lines with Northern Dancer (and Nasrullah). King’s Best (remember him breaking down in the Irish Derby … ) was around the same time. His dam was Allegretta (German bred – in turn the dam of Urban Sea).But the top line has Raise a Native with Nureyev. Now we’re in the disastrous situation outlined by Miss Woodford, where multiple lines of this kind of thing are repeated on both sides of the pedigree.
Personally I can’t see a way out of this without importing sounder stock (Japan is the obvious source), and then 1) an inbreeding policy which refuses to register stock that have pedigrees showing inbreeding to an individual closer than 4 generations. This would bring TBs into alignment with other breeds where there are similar concerns (dogs, cats, rare breed ponies etc); 2) the requirement for all breeding stock (mares as well as stallions) to pass criteria akin to the German level of testing (so no unraced fillies would qualify); and 3) a wholesale reduction in stallion book size. When I first got interested in horse racing/breeding, the book size was limited to 45pa. Now look at certain farms – 125 is low; 150-175 normal; then there are the farms where 200+ is normal. When one factors in the pedigrees of these stallions, the effects of that on the genetic diversity of the ‘herd’ (i.e. the TB population) are immense. Since offspring are 50:50 male/female, it results in large numbers of same way bred mares, who in turn are the future breeding stock. Is it any wonder we are where we are?
Looking at poor San Antonio’s pedigree today reminds me of some material that I read some while back now in relation to US TB breeding. Eventually I remembered the name of the poor unfortunate horse who suffered a similar high profile catastrophic accident – Eight Belles … The basic message of what I was reading was Do Not have three lines of Raise a Native, typically via Mr Prospector, running on the top and bottom of the pedigree. It’s a recipe for fragility. The recent trend to using Dubawi with Galileo mares, and his sons, fuelled by ‘nick’ statistics (another topic, but … ) will often result in offspring that are bred on exactly this pattern. That’s because, aside from Galileo’s pedigree, so many of those mares actually carry another line of Mr Prospector on the dam’s side.
Away from the MSM, Monday’s episode of The News Agents podcast (Maitlis, Sopel) is worth a listen. Entitled tellingly ‘Is horse racing becoming the next bullfighting?’ (which gets to the heart of the social licence issue) it gives air time to ‘both sides’ – on the one hand, EC and, on the other, a representative of AR, Claudia Penna-Rojas. The presenters spend rather more time with Claudia than with Ed, largely because they struggle to get her to articulate clearly what AR’s position actually is. What is illuminating about this discussion (beyond the very obvious youthful idealism) is that AR protests are motivated by 1) a desire to stimulate a wider national conversation about how people live with all animal species (not just TBs) and 2) are part of a wider critique of systems of animal-based food production, and its connections to the climate emergency. Their desired future is one of rewilding and plant-based food systems.
My own sense is that the racing bubble needs to appreciate this contextualisation: yes AR have a problem with racing, but they are not just anti-racing, and it would be wrong to cast them exclusively in this light. Rather, like much militant activism, their tactic was to use a headline day in racing, when most of the nation and beyond was tuned in, to shine a light on their concerns. That’s a long tradition in militant activism – the 1913 Derby was another instance when racing hit the headlines for all the wrong reasons, this time for the suffragette cause. For AR, this tactic was mighty successful. As well as leading to a large amount of MSM coverage, it also precipitated the full range of comment from those inside the racing bubble – exposing once again all our ambivalences about the GN itself.
The wider questions for racing raised by AR’s core concerns, I think, are less to do with the GN, or even the continued (or not) social legitimacy of racing, and rather more to do with the shape of a bloodstock-racing industry going forwards. At the heart of this is the swathes of agricultural land currently given over to grass cultivation specifically for rearing TBs, the over-production of TBs, and the welfare issues this in turn generates (cue Panorama). Whichever way one looks at this, it’s not a situation compatible with the climate emergency. Yet where do we see any recognition of these challenges by the industry or its regulators, let alone interventions that begin to address them?
Prompted by the staggering footage of ‘Himself’s’ greatest performance (which I’d seen before), I started digging around in the race record of, and then trying to find footage of, his equally (possibly more) talented stablemate, Flyingbolt. The performances (pre illness) were quite simply staggering (see his Wikipedia entry: Supreme, Champion Chase – followed by 3rd in the Champion Hurdle a day or so later, Irish GN etc. Performance after performance giving away lumps of weight). As for footage. Well there’s several versions of him on Youtube winning the Massey Ferguson (December’s 2.5M Cheltenham chase), where the camera actually focuses on the race for second. FB is long gone! He was obviously a total monster. But then I came across this wonderful 30 minute interview with Jim Dreaper:
This is well worth a listen and a watch. Here there are VTs (which I hadn’t seen before) of both Arkle and Flyingbolt winning the Irish GN, beating the same mare (Height O’Fashion) giving her crazy amounts of weight. FB beats her more easily than Arkle. She then in turn won the same race a year later, with 12 stone on her back. As Dreaper says, ‘those days are long gone; we don’t ask horses to do that anymore’. The consequence, though, is that no modern day great is going to get anywhere near the monster Timeform ratings of the two Dreaper-trained superstars. Sprinter’s 192p (beating Sizing Europe) is probably as high as it’s possible to go. This matters; because it was by running in handicaps that Arkle and Flyingbolt achieved these (justifiable, not outlandish) ratings, and because of the way it positions NH racing’s best as in an increasingly distant past. How many other sports do this? I’d venture, few if any. And how does that possibly encourage a new fan base? The more I think about the question of NH graded races v handicaps, the more I think it goes to the heart of many of the key challenges facing the sport.
For me, it’s the safety/welfare issue that makes fog a major concern. This is not so much about the ability to see an obstacle. Generally racing speed would drop right back, and there’s an ability that horse/rider will have to sense an obstacle with sufficient preparation time to be able to pop over it. Rather, the issue is that this is the only sport where participants are followed by ambulances (and by vets in cars). As most will know, driving in thick fog is often an uncanny experience – but how, pray, is someone driving alongside the track supposed to see a loose, possibly injured, horse in such conditions? How is anyone going to be able to work out where a loose horse (not exactly an unusual occurrence in NH racing) has even got to? Given the conditions that have persisted in NE England all this week, I think many stewards would be struggling to see even the finishing post let alone any further. How long is it going to take to work out that everything that left the paddock has actually returned (and then to send out search parties if it hasn’t?). Not a good look.
Just catching up with what’s going on here – and, like many have already said: Good to see you back Joe. You’ve been missed. Elon Musk has a few positives, it would seem …
On the topic in hand: I’ve not much to add to what others have already said, but I agree that open handicaps have often been where we jumps fans really come to appreciate what we have. Dessie’s VC and Denman’s second Hennessy were right up there for me with any performance they put up in a level weights G1. I guess what we’re finding unsatisfactory about today’s campaigning is how those performances are becoming so rare these days. That’s why L’Homme Presse’s performance at the weekend was so warming [and note he now has a rating up there with a GC winner]. The trouble is, even an open handicap has its limits when faced with the extraordinary horse. One handicap with Arkle in it; one without is the classic example cited (before my time, but we’ve all heard the story no doubt). That’s where the issue of weight really does cut in – in that tale wasn’t Arkle slated to carry something like 13 stone to get everything else in the handicap? Ok for a hunter maybe but for a steeplechaser going at racing pace? Interestingly, even he, in a very different time and context, wasn’t asked that question.
I agree @Kev – the silence from the RP is deafening. A total news blackout on this story. Some limited comment is starting to appear elsewhere in the UK media, but it has been noticeably ‘behind the curve’ for a story like this. The final paragraph of the Department of Justice’s PR is worth a read. Why might the Feds be interested in the systematic use of PEDs in horse racing? The investigative team which put together the evidence for this case is focused on Eurasian Organised Crime …
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/horse-doping-drug-supplier-convicted-manhattan-federal-court
Well, as perhaps might have been anticipated, things have taken a decidedly interesting turn Stateside in the Fishman trial … The Feds’ wiretaps name even bigger fish.
Fishman Absent From Court After Wiretaps Reveal Him Bragging About Dubai Sales
One of the most insightful comments there has been on the ‘rancid’ word – not a word, but a conditional legal statement, which reflects the line of argument taken by the defendant’s legal team.
https://twishort.com/lhkocIt’s a pity that all the respective parties (and I would include the racing media in this as well as the PJA and BHA) didn’t recognise this from the outset, rather than rush to fuel the flames of an already incendiary case. As a result, this is now going to be a long and very difficult road, with no ‘winners’ only ‘losers’ – and in the end it is the sport itself that will be the loser. We can see this already in the overwhelming response of passionate NH fans on the various forums. To almost a person, we have been angered, incredulous, and frankly appalled by this stuff. So much so, that, as some have said elsewhere, I’ve found myself seriously questioning my investment in this sport over the past week. For the first time in decades, I did not watch Cheltenham’s December meeting. That was my only means to protest, for watching to me is a means to condoning the sport – and particularly a style of presentation that celebrates with, and refuses to question, jockeys over whom there now sits one big question.
Like several on here, I’m not optimistic about the immediate prospects for cultural change. I am trying to work out why. In part there is a structural problem: like others, I’ve had professional experience of being in a toxic working environment, and of resolving the bullying/harassment disputes that emerge in them. Cultural change was possible in that environment – but only through staff turnover and a long process of professional mediation, which started from the position that the organisation (and its members) recognised the need for change and had a collective will to change. That collective will, to me, seems to be absent here; worse, there has been a retrenchment. The prospects for constructive change in such circumstances are not high. I also find my mind turning to reflect on the potential effects of what must be a changed dynamic in the weighing room in recent years. There have been a lot of very high profile retirements in the past few years, of people who have been around for years. In a profession where results command respect, theirs are the voices that would have counted. Is the failure to speak up and to call out in part a reflection of a vacuum in seniority and respect?
@AndyRAC – my thoughts went in exactly the same direction. I also thought of the fate of X Y Jet:
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/238967/indictment-details-alleged-doping-of-x-y-jetPutting to one side the poor horse, the key thing is that, in line with standard procedures, blood, hair and urine samples will have been taken and there will be a full tissue sample (results in 3-6 weeks):
For those who might be interested in the wider international context – this is USADA’s Travers Tygart and Tessa Muir speaking to the TDN Writers’ Room on the US situation, where the new anti-doping guidelines are out for consultation.
USADA’s Travis Tygart and Tessa Muir Join the TDN Writers’ Room
Some key take homes of relevance to events closer to home: the Oireachtas report refers in a positive way to the changes being made in the US with respect to anti-doping – in other words, this is the direction of travel; doping violation is not confined to a failed drugs test (i.e. banned substances) – it encompasses many other violations, including the use of medications and therapeutics that are licensed for other uses (think Salazar and Nike’s Project Oregon or the use of thyroid meds in endurance athletes); and the future (much as in human sport) is equine biological passports combined with retrospective testing. For those not well versed in cycling, Travers even makes reference to Lance Armstrong, US Postal, winter training in Girona and the difficulties USADA had in testing in other jurisdictions.
The relevant section is the first part of the pod, straight after some Breeders Cup talk.
I thought it was about time that this thread was ‘bumped up’ again.
For those who haven’t read the report, it is worth reading – not least because, whilst it does contain a paragraph to the effect that the IHRB’s anti-doping procedures are of the highest possible standards, the list of recommendations suggest that there was much that the Oireachtas Agricultural Committee remained unconvinced by, and much more that they want changed – and asap. Those changes are fundamental to the operation of the IHRB, its membership and its anti-doping regime. If they are enacted, this is far reaching change indeed. Having some knowledge myself of how reports such as this come together and enter the public domain, there are different positions that are being accommodated in this document. For the racing press to focus, as it did initially, on the ‘no substance to your allegations JB’ line is to have misread the report (if indeed they even read it). It is also indicative of a continued inability and/or unwillingness to address issues which other journalists have taken up and run with. It shows a complicity which I continue to find deeply problematic and exceptional in the field of sporting journalism.
Link to the report here: https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/33/joint_committee_on_agriculture_food_and_the_marine/reports/2021/2021-11-09_report-of-the-joint-committee-on-horse-racing-in-ireland_en.pdf
Meanwhile, the coincident (?) events in Kildare seemingly announce a brave new world in Irish racing, led by the DAFM and Garda. I suspect the tentacles will reach far and wide, and beyond Ireland, but whilst the investigation is running its course, I can’t help thinking of the parallels between what has emerged so far and certain ‘jiffy bags’.
I would thoroughly recommend anyone who hasn’t had a listen to yesterday’s NL Daily Podcast to have a listen to the first few minutes, which includes the interview with KB. Episode 314.
Convincing as an explanation? No. Aside from the attitude, it raises way further questions, especially given the casual references made to syringes lying around the place in buckets with stuff like ‘bute in them, not to mention the practice of multiple re-use of syringes for oral administration. The potential for cross contamination there is immense. And we are meant to accept that this stuff somehow got on the back of the lorry heading to the races because the second travelling head girl put the wrong buckets on … Listening to this I had one reaction to what was being described: ‘Festina’. Unfortunately, that’s where I think horse racing (under both codes, in GB and Ireland – and for that matter, elsewhere) is.
As for the ‘paste’: I have no reason to think there is anything untoward in this product in and of itself. But what I find very surprising is that the manufacturers explicitly say on their material that the best results come when administered with feed, so why take the trouble to administer it as a paste? [Much, much messier and subject to uncertain/variable dosage!} And on race day? When supplements should not be being given.
There is a litany of examples from cycling and athletics where athletes have failed drug tests, and paid the consequences in terms of competition bans, allegedly as a result of taking ‘herbal’ or ‘natural’ supplements.
Here is a link to the Pulmon Pro supplement (as posted on Bailey’s Blog this morning):
Pulmon PROIt’s an entirely natural supplement and widely used for competition horses, as well as race horses. The list of ingredients is there. Nothing untoward. But, and this is a big but – this product is sold as something to be scooped i.e. like most supplements it’s added, in scoops, to solid feeds. So, it is not sold in a format that is to be administered as a paste via syringe. To do that (as anyone who has administered anything orally via a syringe would know) it would need to be mixed with something else, in liquid form. Of course, that could be water.
I think so TTC. The wiretap evidence from Rhein re ‘they don’t even have a test for it’ is really telling. Compare that with a piece that appeared recently on the testing regime for the London Olympics:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/17/the-dirty-games-how-london-2012-became-taintedTesting facilities showing off their facilities to show how tough on drugs they are … it proved to be central to Russian state-backed doping. Presumably the same state of affairs exists in horse racing – otherwise how did Rhein know? I find myself wondering “who knows the capability of particular testing facilities in specific jurisdictions?” And then, how might that influence what runs where (on what, or not)?
@Marlingford – I agree. The arguments of the Chair of the BHA Welfare Board (the Chair, note) were alarming in the face of the evidence, and Hoiles quite rightly took him to task over the line that these are ‘isolated incidents’. The use of the ‘with respect’ comment was particularly telling. I cannot recollect any terrestrial racing broadcaster having the gumption to challenge a regulatory figure ‘live’ so obviously before, so RH – ‘thank you’ from those of us who care deeply about this issue and for the future of a responsible racing industry. Not by any stretch of the imagination is 4k ‘isolated incidents’; neither is it a sensible tactic to try to reduce the welfare issues raised by this programme to that one abattoir. I sincerely hope that the media keeps the pressure on.
On which note, it was good to see a piece from Khadijah Mellah on ITV’s Twitter feed today, on the ex Varian horse, UAE King, as a ‘happy hacker’ learning to jump (slowly) and doing a bit of beginner’s dressage. It’s slightly longer than the usual such feature, and touches on some of the challenges of re-homing, even if it doesn’t major on these.
For completeness, I’m also posting the link to Lydia Hislop’s piece for the Sporting Life, which makes many of the same arguments that have appeared on this thread:
https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/where-now-after-panorama-expose/193382
