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ah thats sad
i love that horse just i was going through death watch and couldn’t find him, atleast his still alive, unfortunately not the case for whispered promisesI don’t think you can ceiling Master Minded at all yet. Basically since Paul Nicholls has had him and the horse has developed he’s run in two notable chases and beaten the reigning champ on both ocassions. His performance at Cheltenham was quite amazing and however you rate it its practically impossible not to rate it in the 180’s. It was awesome. Take him out and Voy Por wins by a street. Voy Por himself has been anihilated there’s no other word for it.
Would Master Minded have beaten Badsworth Boy / Moscow Flyer? Well you can’t say for certain but he would definitely be right up there with them. Official ratings have him ahead of the great Moscow Flyer – its hard to argue against it on Thursdays performance – would Moscow Flyer have beaten Master Minded on that day? it’s hard to say conclusively that he would.
We suddenly have three 180 (ish) rated horses : Master Minded, Kauto, Denman after not having any since Dessie (correct me if I’m wrong).
It seems to me that Paul Nicholls is raising the bar and taking steeplechasing to another level.I just feel sorry for Exotic Dancer (though he wasn’t at his best in Gold Cup, predictably after preparation), because in any of the previous twenty years he’d have been the top rated chaser around, a Gold cup winner and winner of probably two King Georges.
We’re lucky, we have some incredible chasers around at the moment and an amazingly gifted trainer.
lol was you there when an interviewer asked Exotics trainer or jock, well said ‘if it wasn’t for on particular horses youd hav a gold cup winner ad the king george, and he replied in the paddy accent, dnt mention that horse lol
Would Denman have beaten Kauto Star in the King George? Would not that be the real test of his greatness?
I don’t think he would. He’d probably run to somewhere around 173 whereas Kauto would run to around 179 – 180 (generally).
People tend to get a bit carried away not least the official handicapper. Distances, going – both make a difference. Denman is a big powerful galloper, Kauto is more speedy. 3 miles 5f Denman wins easily, 2m 4f Kauto wins easily.
What WOULD be a real race is a 2m4f race between Kauto and Master Minded. Tough to call that one.
3m 5f on the ground that was the gold cup, denman win easily? i think not lol, denman was out on his feet
He was entitled to be he upped the pace and went for home a long way out. No horse can retain top gear for ever.
all im saying is saying that he would ‘easily win’ is rediculous, he would have to of done alot more than that to beat kauto at 3m 5
Would Denman have beaten Kauto Star in the King George? Would not that be the real test of his greatness?
I don’t think he would. He’d probably run to somewhere around 173 whereas Kauto would run to around 179 – 180 (generally).
People tend to get a bit carried away not least the official handicapper. Distances, going – both make a difference. Denman is a big powerful galloper, Kauto is more speedy. 3 miles 5f Denman wins easily, 2m 4f Kauto wins easily.
What WOULD be a real race is a 2m4f race between Kauto and Master Minded. Tough to call that one.
3m 5f on the ground that was the gold cup, denman win easily? i think not lol, denman was out on his feet
It would take a brave man to say there is no way Sizing Europe would not have won this years champion hurdle but for injuring himself.
Cruising at the the thrid last while Katchit and Osana’s jockey were going for home like like their lives dependant on it.
You can see his stride change going to the second last and immediately starts to lose ground the rest we know already.
16/1 is a massive price about the horse am I missing something here?
Has the trainer said he’s going chasing or something or have the bookies lost the plot?
Appreciate any info you have
That is a huge price dude, that horse had the race in the bag im telling you(i didn’t back it just watched) t was absolutely pissing it until that point, is it really 16/1 for next year? lol
Denman wasn’t idlng at all after the last fence, he was definately getting ridden, i do hope he goes odds on though, i’ll get more money when kauto wins lol ^^
its not really a debate this about Denman and Kauto star, its mere fact, bot h running to one hundred percent, Kauto would have one by some 15 lengths yesterday, i mean he jumped through every fence, but look just before the last fence, if he jumped that cleanly? the winning margin would have been what? 2 lengths? if that? ad kauto lost a legth or so at aproximately 15 or so fences, im a ks fan and im so pleased how he got so close at teh end, yet bulldozed all the fnces, its good for the sport and punters, because bookies giving 4/1 for nxt year are mugs
Interesting point Zamorston and I find their anti-post prices really interesting but really i’m on about what his sp will be on the day, so yes if he makes it in one piece to the gold cup then the 7/4 would be fair price. There should be several more races in between now and then though and even if he takes on Kauto between now and then he’ll be odds-on in my opinion.
there is noway that horse can be odds on next year after the way kauto star managesd to hit every fence and still only loose by such a short distance, and btw if he hadn’t hit the last, it would have been ALOT closer, even though he hit everything b4 that. Everyone is being media boys about denman, Kauto will be a sleping giant ^^ we have seen the best denman can offer(he was DIEING at the end) , after the way ks starting to come back, we still havn’t seen his best, how exciting
MRC, lovely to hear a opinion different to my own, unlike some people I think thats what classifies a forum. Kauto will never beat Denman, and Denman will never be beaten as long as there is no skullduggery involved. Can you handle that, or do you feel the need like some people to tell me all was not said and done in the holy bible?
thats a strange post, it implies i was asking for an opinion lol
i was merely stating how it is going to happen. and after seeing Denman die at the end, which btw he DID do lol it is plain to see which one has the scope for yet even more improvement, btw even though today proved KS to be somewhat superior by quite away, just getting that close to denman today, with the way denman performed in comparison to KS is out of this world, and he will be proven one day to be better than Arkle. I’ll still say, today Denman was good as Nicholls said, ‘his just good’. But if somone coms to you and says, right i can guaratee they will both run to 100 percent of there ability, after today, there is absolutely noway you could possibly back Denman, lol, bring on the rematch ;;)Do think some have got the wrong end of the stick (or whip).
Those who are disappointed are only disappointed because Kauto did not run to form.
That is not to decry Denman, he can not help it if his stable mate does not jump well enough.
Even with Kauto running poorly, it was still an awsome performance by Denman. Best for many a year.
Ginge
tbh, it wasn’t tht big a margin of victory considering all of KS blunders, it is obvious to anyone, if kauto cleared every fence that denman cleared, then Kauto star would have won, and probably by some way, and don’t even start with the denman pace worried kauto, kauto is easily capable and proven to travel that fast and jump fluently, its just on this day it wasn’t to be, if you dnt think KS can beat Denman at cheltenham then you know nothing about horse racing, you only have to watche the last two furlongs to see that KS is absolutely unbelievable, its like when he struggled in the race with monets garden, he was never quite right, yet he started to get back at him at the end, the same in this b4 he hit the last fence though he lost, and denman ran a GREAT race, it has merely pleased me to see how well kauto did do considering he had major problems. imean minus just the really bad jump on the last fence and KS would have been extremely close to Denman at the end, he really was machining along, so just wait and seee a race when he actually jumps properly
i can’t wait lolthe new official ratings are
masterminded 186
denman 185
kaoto star 180
neptune 178
that is from the handicapper phil smith who spoke to paul nicheols in the paddock before last race at chelt today…………..i’m not disappointed in the race at all, as per title thread, but if we’re going by the official handicapper kauto has raced to within 1lb of his best rating when jumping poorly including smacking the last where he lost plenty of momentum. i can’t have that at all.
personally i’d have denman running to 4-5lb below that, on a par with kautos best.Yup your right mate, the only way that can be true is if we really an’t seen the best of Kauto Star
the new official ratings are
masterminded 186
denman 185
kaoto star 180
neptune 178
that is from the handicapper phil smith who spoke to paul nicheols in the paddock before last race at chelt today…………..wow that would make Kauto probably capable of 195 then
My argument hinges on whether it was a slow race or not, if it was (like last year) then of course Kauto ran below form, if it was a quick race, unlike one Kauto has ever been in before then it’s entirely plausible he’s ran to form and just couldn’t jump or travel at ease under pace. I think Findlay should be a fortune teller he told the whole world what was going to happen.
He’s won Grade One events over 2 miles – of course he can jump AND travel with a strong pace.
We all knew Denman was going to inject pace into the race, it was just a matter of when. Kauto was never travelling, even before Denman’s surge.
Oh no, I hope Findlay doesn’t come out with his ‘Denman broke their hearts nonsense’.
lol i know its rediculous, maybe everyone bar ks and NC were broken, but kauto was struggling a 1/4 way through the first circuit let alone the 2nd, with his jumping i mean. Findley wasn’t has pleased as he would of been if KS had ran to its very best and still Denman won, then i would be holding my hands up lol
Nothing wrong with Kauto’s temperament. He ran a very brave race with proper stayers around him. Ruby was at Kauto a long way from home and his horse responded well.
I don’t like this saying ‘Denman broke their hearts’. Harry Findlay can up with that nonsense and that’s exactly what it is, nonsense.
Kauto rallied as well as he could under pressure, but found one too good on the day.
Findlay said this could be the only time they meet. I sincerly hope he doesn’t shy away from a rematch – Denman certainly wouldn’t!!
If its smart it will be the only time they meet
hmm i have to put this because i really agree with what you say tenbob lol, it is like man united can beat derby playing their worst football, to beat chelsea they will have to be at their best, and i think its going to be the same for these two horses, i hope for some great matches in the future
Denman on this day made the rest of the runners have a bad day when he runs in that style you have to be at your very best to get near him. kauto run his heart out but was pressured to make mistakes same applies to Exoctic dancer.
This is again wrong lol, i stress again KS has gone quicker than what wwe have just seen. Kauto jumped once really well, the first fence lol. maybe he was under pressure for the rest of the race then? ^^
ok Denman falls and Kauto star wins or kauto makes no mistakes and passes Denman after the last.
That is the point i was trying to make with Denman in that form Kauto has to be at his very best.oh i totally agree with you there, he would have to be at his very best to beat Denman to day, and he was a long qay from it, but anyone who knows anything about horse racing knows you can loose 2/3 lengths at a fence, i hail Denmans jumping today bar 1 mistake, he was simply good in every single way at what he did, very workmanlike, the way kauto managed to jump so poorly, then manage to get up just b4 he hit the last fence, just makes me feel that kauto is capable of more than what denman did today, but that can not be seen, and may never be seen we shall see, but Denman was VERY good today
