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Upsetting to hear of the death of one of my sporting hero’s.
How wonderful it was that he got the chance to train the greatest horse I have ever seen and guide that unique exuberant talent throughout a wonderful 3 year career.
Sad he wont get the chance to train Frankel’s babies but I’m sure he died a very proud man looking back on what he achieved.
Pretty much beyond belief that Ribot isn’t already on the list. Ribot is a must along with Frankel, 30 races undefeated between them. Arguably the two greatest thoroughbreds to have raced in Europe since WW2.
No doubt,we all have to respect the timeform handicappers.However I wonder whether some horses over the flat have been blatantly underrated and some over -rated.These are the 7 best examples.
1.Nijinsky ,being rated at 138 below Generous,Reference Point was ridiculuos.Infact Racing Post had to make a correction and adjusted Nijinsky’s rating to 140 ,and gave him a higher ranking than Vaguely Noble and Dancing Brave.
2.Sea the Stars was rated only 136 by Racing Post Ratings well below Dancing Brave and Mill Reef and Timeform rated him at 140,still below Mill Reef.Sea the Stars may well have deserved around 142 ,being arguably the best middle-distance champion after Sea Bird,or en surpassed him.
3.Sir Ivor,who Lester Piggot rated the best horse he had ever ridden is rated at 135 on par with ‘The Minstrel.’ and below ‘Nashwan.’I think the Ivor atleast deserved around 138.
4.Golden Fleece was ranked by trainer Vincent O’Brien with Nijinsky,Sir Ivor and Alleged amongst the best 4 horses he had ever trained.In the Epsom Derby Golden Fleece won like a great champion,possibly even surpassing Nijinsky’s 1970 performance.However he was given only 134.
5.Lammtaara,again was unbeaten in the Derby,King George and Arc but only got 134.
6.Zafonic,the champion miler was only awarded 134 ,who in his era was the best after Brigadier Gerard.
7.Dahlia,arguably the best race-mare ever who vanquished Rhiengold by 6 lengths in the 1973 King George was rated at 135 ,below Rheingold(137) and Allez France.(137)
I think Frankel is probably the best racehorse ever and deserves his 147 rating.However he never raced at a mile and a half like Brigadier Gerard.The point is whether Timeform only asseses natural ability,or it also takes versatility into consideration.For instance Dubai Millenium was arguably the best ever at 10 furlongs ,but came a cropper at the distance of a mile and a half.Sea the Stars was one of the most versatile champions ever.For overall versatlity to me Ribot was the ultimate champion of you consider ground and distance followed.For versatality of distance it would be Nijinsky at the top followed by Sea the Stars.
The last point is whether how we could rank the champions on the basis of timings .Dancing Brave in the 1986 Arc ,Peintre Celebre in the 1997 Arc and Sea the Stars in the 2009 Arc wee progressively faster than Sea Bird in the 1965 Arc.Thus would Sea Bird have beaten Sea the Stars in 2009 or produced a quicker timing?The thorougbreds are getting speedier with succesive generations.Compare Dancing Brave’s Arc Time with Sea Bird’s or Sea the Star’s with Dancing Brave’s.
1. Nijinsky looked superb in the summer of 1970. His 2000 Guineas win was impressive but 2nd Yellow God also tasted defeat at the hands of Cambridgeshire winner Prince de Galles, smart German colt Primas and top class filly Humble Duty, he won a Guineas trial and a French G3. Roi Soleil was beated by Dictus and Sparkler who were both well and truly put in their place by Brigadier Gerard. The Derby looks good Gyr, went on to win Prix de St Cloud and 3rd Stintino was a pretty smart colt but got beat by Oake winner Lupe in following years Coronation Cup and was handed out a couple of drubbings by Caro who was slaughtered by Mill Reef in Eclipse and Arc. In the KG Nijinsky won very easily but Blakeney the runner up is regarded as one of the worst post war Derby winners and had been 2nd in the Gold Cup on is previous start. Although both were beaten in the Arc on their final start both Reference Point’s and Generous’ best form of the summer stand up pretty well, Generous beat subsequent Arc winner Suave Dancer 3L at the Curragh and French Derby winner Sanglamore 7L in the KG. Reference Point twice beat Triptych who that season won the Coronation Cup, International Stakes, Phoenix Park Champion and Champion Stakes.
2. Sea The Stars achieved a great feat but didn’t have to brilliant to do it, in the Guineas he beat Delegator a regular whipping boy in lesser company, in the Derby he beat Fame and Glory who won a very weak Irish Derby and went on to be a pretty good stayer, in the Arc he beat Youmzain (never won another race) and Cavalryman took him until this year to win another race. The best horse he beat was Rip Van Winkle who got closer at each attempt, he was exposed the following season as a solid G1 horse similar level to Twice Over over 10F and was humbled by Canford Cliff in the Sussex. Sea The Stars was a very good colt not a TF 140 any day. I simply can’t have him 1lb behind Mill Reef and the equal of Dancing Drave on TF ratings, STS vastly over-rated in my opinion.
3. Sir Ivor, now heres a colt who’s 2000 Guineas form is outstanding he beat Petingo (a tip top miler) and Jimmy Reppin also very high class, his Derby win over Connaught also reads well as Connaught was very talented. Defeats to Royal Palace(probably under-rated by TF), Prince Sao and Ribero bring him down then you have the problem of if Sir Ivor is high 130’s were do you put Vaguely Noble who thrashed him in the Arc.
4. Golden Fleece looked a colt of immense talent when winning the Derby, but runner-up was beaten in his next two starts by Electric, 3rd Silver Hawk was absolutley hammered in Irish Derby by Assert. It’s impossible to rate GF higher although I concede he could well have been capable of getting to 140ish.
5. Lammtarra similar to GF although he was more highly tried a narrow defeat of Pentire in the KG and narrow win over Freedom Cry in Arc is not 140 form, though again he may well have kept on improving has have been rated higher.
6. Zafonic’s reputation rest on 2 year-old form and an outstanding performance in the Guineas but he was beaten on his other 2 starts at 3. The 3.5L deafeat of top class Barathea reads well but Barathea won just 3 of 11 starts over a mile and was probably 130ish at best.
7. Dahlia was indeed a terrific mare was I believe she ran against Allez France 6 times and the score was 6-0 to Allez France. Dahlia may have had some excuses along the way but must have had her conditions at least once so impossible you can rate Dahlia higher than Allez France.
As I suspect is the case of most of you, I can only go by the grainy out of focus B/W pictures for previous greats like Ribot, Relko, Sea Bird etc. So I couldn’t really judge Frankel with those horses.
I was still at primary school when Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard were the bees knees and so only have vague recollections of them, although there is a fair bit of decent video evidence of their exploits.
I suppose the nearest to compare Frankel with of those three would be Brigadier Gerard as the others were more staying types. I would have to say overall Frankel’s form is superior.
I would have Excelebration as a better miler than anything Brigadier Gerard beat Sparkler, Dictus and Faraway Son were genuine G1 horses and pretty much of similar ability but Excelebration is clearly beyond any question the 2nd best miler about at the minute and is in my opinion as good as any others over the last ten years including, Rock of Gibraltar, Goldikova and Canford Cliffs.
That Frankel is so far ahead of him in my opinion marks Frankel as the greatest miler in my lifetime.
In only 2 starts over 10F Frankel proved just as good, slamming 3 G1 winners by 7L and more at York. In adverse conditions at Ascot he beat 4 G1 winners, the runner-up is the 2nd highest rated horse in the world Frankel beat the reigning champ under his optimum conditions giving up a good 4L lengths at the start cruised by him on the bit a furlong out and pulled comfortably clear despite showing signs of tiredness close home.
It’s diffucult to compare him with 12F horses but to me the form he showed at shorter distances is clearly superior than any other horse has achieved over any trip other trip, so he goes down in my opinion as the greatest I’ve ever seen in 40 years of watching racing.Of course there is something to suggest they could have got closer to Frankel. They all achieved higher ratings than Excelebration over a mile. In particular Goldikova’s 2009 victory in the Jacques le Marois is 8lbs better than any effort that Excelebration has produced in victory or defeat.
Comparing horses of vastly differing generations is too inexact to be definitive. The fact remains that Excelebration would not have been champion miler in 2008, 2009 or 2010 on what he has achieved this year or last.Well a 6L deafeat of Aqlaam is better than Excelebration has achieved. Is this the same Aqlaam that beat Confront(never won above G3) 0.5L in his previous start, next start beaten by Famous Name, not won a G1 in 37 races, only subsequent start beaten 14.5L by Rip. Is this really better form than beating Immortal Verse (conqueror of Goldikova on her previous start) 3.5L.
Allowing Goldikova to be 5lb inferior in 2011 to 2009, Excels QEII form is still better than what you claim to be Goldikova’s best.
I reiterate, Excelebration suffers from comparison to the greatest ever. Goldikova 2011, 2010, 2009 would have absolutely no chance whatsoever against Frankel over any distance. The destruction of Canford Cliffs shows what Frankel does and its to Excelebration’s credit that he’s gotten a close as he has on a few occasions.
I fully expect Excelebration to confirm himself as the 2nd best miler around on Saturday with another G1 success.
Excelebration is inferior to Canford Cliffs, Makfi, Rip Van Winkle, Henrythenavigator and Goldikova but that is only in the last 5 seasons, to go back 40 years the list would be very long indeed. He is a top class, durable performer but someway below the A list of milers, comparisons with the Brigadier are truly risible.
Can’t agree with this. CC, Makfi, RVW, Henry and Goldikova have form lines that tie them pretty close together, at their best probably no more than a lenght or so between them with perhaps Canford Cliffs just shading it.
There is nothing that suggests any of that bunch could have got any closer to Frankel than Excelebration has and I would rate Excelebration at the very least as good as any of those, if not better.
Take Frankel out of the equation, added to his Moulin and Jacques le Marois victories Excelebration has won a QEII by 3.5L, a Lockinge by 4L, although only just clinging on to 2nd in the Queen Anne, if ridden with more restraint on all known form would probably won that by daylight. I could also make valid case that he was clear 2nd best when 3rd in the SJP.
With a record of 12 consecutive victories including 6 G1’s we would be talking about Excelebration as perhaps one of the very best milers since Brigadier Gerard, certainly a A list miler to rank with the likes of Kris, Irish River, Northjet, Zafonic etc.
Frankel makes very good horses look ordinary and its been Excels misfortune to be made to look ordinary when he most certainly isn’t.
The weather reports seem to be getting finer every day, heavy ground now appears unlikely. All other things being equal it’s Frankel by 8L+.
As I read this thread I know how you all feel.I feel exactly the same way about the upcoming election for president only the race that will determine the future of so many is hanging in the balance.If Frankel loses we will all get over it in less than four years.
If Romney wins you’ll never get over it!
This looks a like it could be a serious test for Frankel. Nathaniel has won KG & Eclipse on G/S ground, Pastorius a G1 winner over 10F on soft he also ran Danedream to 1L, Ridasyna won l’Opera on soft ground on Arc day beating proven G1 fillies Izzi Top and Giofra and it looks like Cirrus des Aigles with get his optimum conditions.
All the Frankel doubters it seems couldn’t have wished for a more thorough test, all four main challengers have G1 form over trip and easy underfoot conditions.
I read somewhere the clerk of the course thinks it should be no worse than soft on Saturday, lets hope he’s right and horses are able to compete in reasonable conditions.
On good/soft or even on soft I’ll take Frankel to still win easily by a wide margin, remember what happened the last time he ran on ground with soft in the description, he slaughtered Excelebration.
I think a similar display is on the cards for his farewell
performance, he’ll leave an indelible memory of a horse while he may never have been pushed to his limit of his ability it was still enough to persuade us that he is the greatest racehorse we may ever see.One of my favourite moments was Ian Barlett’s commentry in the 2000 Guineas, when he exclaimed in utter disbelief "but at the bushes Frankel is FIFTEEN LENGTHS CLEAR".
It still sends shivers down my spine, a moment I think any racing fan will remember forever.
The Frankel campaign has been safe, safe, safe – and good luck to them they have nurtured an undefeated champion perfectly. They are not gamblers.
The Camelot campaign has been more risky – and good luck to them they showed him off to their home crowd despite the ground, they had a go at the Triple Crown and came an honourable second. The owners are gamblers.
Here we go again. "Safe, safe, safe".An alternative way of looking at it is:
Coolmore knew they had a "top class" racehorse. We got the usual spin from team Ballydoyle, "
He’s the best I’ve trained
, can you hear me breeders? I said he’s the best I’ve ever trained"!
Ye, right. They knew he wasn’t anywhere near the class of Frankel. The same Frankel who had his campaign mapped out, anyone who wanted to take him on, could take him on. There for the taking. ie "Come and have a go if you think you’re hard enough". Of course there weren’t many takers, so many alternative Group 1’s these days, connections can swerve the very best horses.Coolmore knew had they kept Camelot to middle-distances (like most Derby winners) there’d be an outcry if his campaign didn’t include taking on Frankel at York. Therefore, by going for the St Leger (for which he started long odds-on, ie much the most likely winner) Coolmore went the SAFE route. Afterwards, they no longer had an unbeaten colt, so could no longer fool people in to thinking he’s a superhorse. Now they needed to show some winning form in a top class race…
They kept the Arc option open. When Danedream and Nathaniel came out they saw their chance. In all probability the race would not take as much winning as usual and made a calculated decision (not a "gamble" at all). Anyone else think there seemed too many excuses to be true in post race interviews? Cut leg, shoe came off, long campaign etc etc etc. Damage limitation?
Completely agree. It will interesting to see what kind of campaign Camelot has next year, how agressively campaigned will he be after he trots up in the Tattersalls Gold Cup especially if a real 3 year-old middle distance star emerges.
Camelot, I feel may end up a bit like a St Nicholas Abbey, a top class talented colt that will win G1’s but ultimately a little bit below the cream.
The Champion Stakes has suffered because of its proximity in the racing calendar to the Arc and Breeders Cup but last years and this years are very strong renewals. With the hike in prize money for the Champion and the supporting races, Champions Day will become a viable alternative to the Breeders Cup. OK the prize money is still way off BC purses but still very serious money.
I see Champions Day becoming a kind of European Breeders Cup with the Europeans turning away from the doped horses running on an alien surface around an athletics track that is the Breeders Cup.
I really do find it remarkable that people are critizing Frankel’s connections for "playing it safe". Why isn’t the same argument leveled at for example Danedream, why do people not expect her to be top class at a mile.
It doesn’t matter what distance your good at, its the level of performance that determines your ability, and Frankel passed the audition a long time ago.
For what its worth I’m of the opinion that Frankel will stay 12F and would win an Arc quite easily, the Champion is potentially a more difficult race anyway with Cirrus des Aigles in opposition.
Really taken by
Our Obsession
today. A filly beating colts she was also a second faster than 1st Div of the maiden and 1/2 second faster than Hcap won by 105 rated 4 year-old filly carrying only 9lb more in the last.
This is a filly going places, shes by Shamardal out of a Cheshire Oaks winner, so has the pedigree to be useful. She’s definately on my Oaks shortlist.
If Nathaniel runs the three highest rated horses in the world will be in the field. Having said that the Arc winner will probably parachute into 2nd or 3rd spot.
I think 10F is now becoming the favoured distance on the international racing scene. Over 10F you have the Cox Plate in OZ, their most prestigious race, the Hong Kong Cup, one of the most valuable races in the far east, The Dubai World Cup, the richest race in the world, Breeders Cup Classic & Kentucky Derby both 10F, the Prix du Jockey Club recentley changed down to 10F, and now the re-invigorated Champion Stakes will be on paper at least as good as the Arc.
I can envisage in the next decade or so with continued financial support that the Champion will be the premier autumn middle distance race in Europe, it is already a viable alternative to the BC Classic.The only downside is the ground which will more often than not be on the slow side.
I think a forgotten horse here is St.Nicholas Abbey, he must be value at near 4 times the price of Danedream. Remember he was just 1.5L off Danedream & Nathaniel in the KG after a less than inspiring ride. He again was given a tough task last time out letting 2 proven 10F G1 winners get a run on him.
If as many of us think Frankel would slaughter this field, then his 7L beating over a trip probably short of his best looks pretty good in the context of this race with Farhh franking the form albeit over a mile next time out.
If given a good ride I can see him being in the 1st 3.
I think we’re disecting the defeat of an at best above average colt, NONE of Camelot’s form stands up to any scrutiny. In all the races he’s won, only 8 yes 8 horses have won a race subsequently, only one "Power" won a G1, in that G1 only 2 of the beaten horses have won since, both at G3 level.
This is the worst crop of 3 year-olds I can remember!
