Forum Replies Created
- Posts
HI folks , thanks so much for the quick assistance – greatly appreciated. What follows is the info for the earlier Ascot Gold Cups that I’ve managed to bring together. Please feel free to point out anything "odd" and if you have better info please tell me. Again , apologies if it’s hard to follow – looks ok before I cut & paste.
One thing does lead to another . I reckon the Baroda business follows this path ……possibly !
St Leger winner Sayajirao in 1947 was owned by Maharaja of Baroda and he raced in light terra cotta & crimson. His wife ( Maharanee ) raced in powder blue & maroon and owned the ’52 Gold Cup winner Aquino. Can confirm her colours from the ’53 Derby racecard.
Wikipedia ( love it or loathe it ) says Maharaja died in 1968 and in the Benson & Hedges book of ’73 the Maharanee now is registered with the terra cotta & crimson so she must have swapped to his.
Maybe …. ??
Maharaja’s father was called Sayajirao – didn’t know that did you ?
Following are some earlier Gold Cup winners I’m struggling with.
1908 The White Knight Col TYL Kirkwood
1904 Throwaway F Alexander
1903 Maximum II M. J de Bremond
1896 Love Wisely Mr H Bass
1819 Anticipation Mr Lechmere
Anyone interested in the earlier ones I have identified ( or so I think anyway ) ?
Cheers all
I.Have got the following for the Ascot Gold Cup ( can go back to 1807 but a fair bit of typing so will pass those on later if any use or demand ). A few included in here where I need some help if possible. Apologies if it’s a bit tricky to read.
1972 ERIMO HAWK Y Yammamoto pale blue with 2 yellow hoops red slvs red cap with yellow hoop
1971 RANDOM SHOT Mrs J Benskin purple & green stripes flame slvs
1970 PRECIPICE WOOD RJ McAlpine McAlpine tartan yellow slvs yellow & green qtd cap
1967 PARBURY Major H Holt HELP PLEASE
1966 FIGHTING CHARLIE Lady M Bury rose
1965 FIGHTING CHARLIE Lady M Bury rose
1962 BALTO A Reuff HELP PLEASE
1961 PANDOFELL H Warwick Daw HELP PLEASE
1957 ZARATHUSTRA T Gray red white sash
1955 BOTTICELLI Marchesse della Rocchetta white red x belts and cap
1953 SOUEPI G Digby HELP PLEASE
1952 AQUINO II Maharanee of Baroda powder blue maroon chevrons , slvs & cap
1951 PAN II E Constant white green hoop & armlets yellow cap
1948 Arbar Marcel Boussac orange grey cap
1947 Souverain F R Schmitt HELP PLEASE
1946 Caracalla II Marcel Boussac orange grey cap
1945 Ocean Swell Lord Roseberry rose & primsose hoops rose cap
1944 Umiddad H.H Aga Khan III chocolate & green hoops chocolate cap
1943 Ujiji Major AE Allnatt HELP PLEASE
1942 Owen Tudor C. Macdonald-Buchanan white black hoop & armlets red cap
1941 Finis Sir Hugo Cunliffe-Owen green white hooped slvs qtd cap
1940 No Race
1939 Flyon 1st Baron Milford black white sash & slvs gold cap
1938 Flares William Woodward, Sr. white red spots black cap
1937 Precipitation Lady Zia Wernher green & yellow halves slvs reversed yellow cap
1936 Quashed Lord Stanley black white sash & cap
1935 Tiberius Sir Abe Bailey black & gold hoops gold cap
1934 Felicitation H.H Aga Khan III chocolate & green hoops chocolate cap
1933 Foxhunter Edward Esmond white blue slvs yellow cap
1932 Trimdon Hon Charles Lambton black & white stripes green slvs red cap
1931 Trimdon Hon Charles Lambton black & white stripes green slvs red cap
1930 Bosworth Lord Derby black white button white cap
1929 Invershin J Reid Walker light green
1928 Invershin J Reid Walker light green
1927 Foxlaw Sir Abe Bailey black & gold hoops gold cap
1926 Solario Sir John Rutherford cerise & white stripes white cap
1925 Santorb AB Walker blue red collar & cuffs pink cap
1924 Massine Henry Ternynck black & orange hoops black cap
1923 Happy Man Fred Hardy green white chevron hoops green slvs red collar, cuffs & cap
1922 Golden Myth Sir George Bullough cerise purple slvs
1921 Periosteum Benjamin Irish purple yellow x belts , slvs & cap
1920 Tangiers Sir W Nelson white red , white & blue sash red cap
Cheers
I.Old Applejack , hold on a mo with the patchwork please. According to the Benson & Hedges book it quotes the colours of J Manners (owner of Red Alligator) as ….. "Purple" , Green sleeves striped cap.
Hate to contradict I de B as we’re all in this sort of hunt together …. 3rd opinion anyone ?
Anyway , as Old Applejack’s looking at the winners of the National since the 60’s , any of you regulars go back further ? Reason for asking is I’m looking for the colours carried by Woodbrook from 1881 – owner was TYL Kirkwood who owned the dual Ascot Gold Cup winner , The White Knight (1907/1908).
Thanks to Slewman’s postings earlier for selected French & Irish classics , as well as the American Triple Crown races , I thought I’d try and "get" that lot as wella s the Ascot Gold Cup
May be looking for help and/or sympathy soon from you all – very soon !!
cheers
I.Hi All ,
was about to mention that I’d found a 1920/21 version of Ruffs Guide on the internet – presume it’s the same one you have Ivanjica , in the area where the old American racing colours were found.
Anyway , re Caligula , I managed to find them a while ago – if you google…… goculdas racing colours cherry you get some references .
Colours are Cherry & Black hoops quartered cap
Ties in nicely with an illustration of the 1923 Derby finish from a set of cigarette cards called “ Big Events on the Turf” by Alexander Boguslavsky.
Goculdas then owned Parth who was placed behind Papyrus – he was then sold to AK Macomber and won that years Arc in the Red & White stripes.
Re the Ruffs Guide – a long way back in this thread wasn’t someone after the colours carried by Kincsem ? Owner was Count von Blaskovits ( or was it Baron ? ) Anyway, have seen illustrations showing very pale colours , sure you folks have. In the Ruffs Guide , admittedly years later , there’s a Nicolaus von Blaskovits listing Light Blue , Light Blue cap with Gold tassel.
Coincidence or not ??
Have also had the same query re Bentinck and came to the same conclusion as you.
Cheers
I.Nothing’s ever as simple as it should be is it .
I have seen ( admittedly a while ago and I can’t get back to it on the internet – yet ! ) a painting of Molvedo with what look like red jacket , black cap and it tied in with a photo I’d seen elsewhere but …….. will search again.
Does your posting imply that you’ve only those two missing from the Arc ?
I still haven’t got the following so would love some help please.
57 Oroso
53 La Sorellian
45 Nikellora
33 CrapomCheers
I.PS have you tried the following link ? Helps if you’re after modern French owners but some old established families are in there as well.
http://www2.france-galop.com/couleurs/CatcoNPro.aspx
just type in a name you’re after and click OK after that , click on the camera for the colours .
why can’t we have this in Britain ? never mind eh !
amazing how people stumble across information on the internet.
patience rewarded – thanks
I.
Was searching the internet a few days ago before seeing this thread for information on John Crouch and came across the following link – hope I’ve copied it correctly.
Jeddah – I’ve got Light Blue Brown striped sleeves Light Blue cap.
go and search on google image – vanity fair jockey madden
the stripes look black but as I can’t remember where I got the "brown" from I’m more than happy to be corrected.
on a Salmon & Gluckstein cigarette card the colours are shown as light blue with brown ( definitely this time ) "hoops" on the sleeves. One currently on sale on E-bay search for jockey salmon within collectables section
all pictures of Jeddah I’ve seen have stripes so maybe I’ve mixed and matched a bit subconciously !
Cheers
I.Hi All , I’m struggling to make headway with those NH ones but still searching.
As for the question of stripe/stripes – looking at all the old paintings available from late 1700’s to early 1800’s , they all look to be "stripes" as we’d know them today. Can’t recall seeing any rider with a single wide stripe. May be wrong but I’d be willing to bet ( a small amount ) that the single stripe came much later when there became a need for more options or variations to be available as the number of owners increased.
As for caps , Eleanor , one of Bunbury’s , has a striped cap yet I’ve a picture of Diomed where the cap is black. I’m pretty sure that when colours first had to be declared all caps were black – whether this was a link to the hunting field is a possibility – or may be rubbish.
Anyway , having solved nothing I’ll get off the fence and search some more.
Cheers
Hi Ivanjica
They’re horizontal hoops – for proof take a convoluted trip via google land:
Worldwide google search use the following :-
Caps and jackets owners pd729384
Should show a link to "photographers direct". Click on that and you should get a preview of an old pullout from the Illustrated London News from way back – actually four in the set ( if you google again without the pd……….. you will be able to click on a link to the others .)
A bit small to look at but LeFevre is bottom right of the first screen. Search the net for better views at a later date – worth it.
Cheers
I.Slewman , great information you’ve added to this thread since you found "us" – many thanks.
When I asked the question " does anybody out there know the colours ………. etc " must admit I wasn’t very hopeful of anyone else being too concerned with the subject.
Really grateful for all help and information given and really good to know other people are interested in the history involved.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all out there.
I.
Hi Ivanjica
I went with "Mauve Red sash etc " based on a card in the set Ogdens Prominent Racehorses of 1933.
Think I’ve seen the other one you mention but don’t you think the Ogden series carries a bit more credence , if only from the quality of the illustration .
Hi Slewman
In recent years I’ve only ever seen the second string distinguished by a red cap but when Carozza won the 1957 Oaks Lester wore a white cap with a gold fringe.
Just an observation : no actual “proof” of what the official 2nd colours are.
Cheers
I.It’s not pedantic , good to think people take such an interest.
The subject of "second" colours has me stumped regarding winners from way back. In the 30’s 40’s and 50’s the Aga Khan won plenty of classics but quite a few were with the 2nd or 3rd string and have no idea what distinguishing cap was worn although……..
have seen a painting of Mahmoud being saddled at Epsom in 1936 ( think it was actually on a stamp ) and it’s a green cap , not the usual chocolate one – also have a picture of Firdaussi ( 32 Leger ) with Freddie Fox in a pale cap ( white / yellow , who knows ??)
1919 Derby won by Grand Parade , jockey wore a distinguishing cap to avoid confusion with better fancied stable mate – what colour ??
maybe am being pedantic after all !
I.Hi folks , I got Tommy Yuill’s colours from an old 60’s York racecard. Have a pretty grainy photo that tends to back up the birds eye aspect of the colours.
Great to get all that American information – not computer literate but the following may lead to an old publication of American owners colours from way back
http://www.archive.org/details/americanracingco00mill
if it doesn’t . apologies , try googling a book by Thomas K Miller and look for a link to a free Internet Archive – once in , browse for other old racing publications as wellCheers
I.Great information Slewman, thanks for the effort that went into that – I keep checking the thread but we’ve all been a bit quiet lately – plenty to look at now.
Agree exactly with what you say about Pearl Diver – have seen a scan of the racecard with “yellow” but all photos & film shows black & white colours being carried.
Still on the hunt for the 1925 Cheltenham Gold Cup – ebay will give up the answer eventually – trust me !!
Regards to all
I