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Ile de B. old race cards come up trumps.
1953 Derby , in the first race Ashurst Wonder
Mauve Pink slvs Yellow cap
1992 Gimcrack Son Pardo
( as written ) Royal Blue large Yellow spots on body R Blue slvs yellow spots and spots on cap
still looking
cheers
I.Have been “googling” again and have found out the following – don’t get too excited though.
If you google molvedo 1961 ( worldwide , not just uk ) them go to “images” you should see a painting of said horse Red Black Cap . Can’t verify how accurate that may be but prior to finding that I did stumble across a black & white picture of Molvedo in an online edition of Sports Illustrated – looked like one solid colour with a very dark cap so …. Maybe ??
Have a look on the British Pathe site – been there before. Use the advanced search and in Keywords either Ashurst Wonder or Oroso and you’ll get the races. Black and white but at least with Oroso we are now looking for some mention of seams.
Keep hunting.
I
Hi Pinza , have had a look at my "sources" such as they are and am not getting much joy to be honest.
The Raciana publication stops at 1890 ! There were quite a few owners with French Grey , Cerise slvs & cap 1860’s to 1880’s butI haven’t stumbled across any likely candidates around the time in question from my classic winner project.
Have seen the picture and it is very Dega-esque in style – to my uncultured eye anyway , so it has something of a French feel about it anyway hasn’t it. Jockey looks to be carrying a pound or two overweight.
Wonder if it is actually a specific horse or just that pink & grey go well together in the actual picture ?
End of Antiques Roadshow – sorry have been of no help at all.
Hi Ile de B nice to have you back ; from the sound of your computer problems I trust you are currently archiving everything the old fashioned way – with paper & felt tip pens. Give us a call when you’ve finished in ten years time!!
Anyway , thanks for the extra homework over the summer holidays. Can give one now :-
P Butler ( Kashmir II ) Red , White AND Light Blue check Light Blue Cap.
got that from Rob Marriott at Weatherbys and also confirmed by B&H Book of 1973. Very small checks about a quarter of what you’d get on Nelson Bunker Hunts for example. P Butler also owned Breton , winner of 1969 Grand Criterium . There’s a picture of him in Tote Racing Annual 1970 – if I was technically minded I’d attach it.
Cheers for now
The subject of belt/sash doesn’t seem straightforward does it.
Looking at the Raciana publication mentioned earlier in this thread ……( Bless that particular find on the internet )
Charles Brewer owned Robert The Devil and all pictures of him I’ve seen show a sash – colours are described though as Sky Blue Belt
Equally , Lord Hastings , owner of Melton , has a crimson belt yet there are pictures of Fred Archer , described as wearing Hastings’ colours , and again , it’s a sash.
Agree that “belt” rings a bell re Duchess of Westminster/Arkle and that was a thin hoop – pay your money and etc etc ….
Hi all
I take belt to mean a sash – cross-belts makes sense then so I’m happy to leave it at that.
graduated hoops – excuse the clunky description that’s going to follow . Sir Alfred Butt’s colours are yellow with Grad. blue hoops.
take a solid yellow body with a normal sized/widthed blue hoop around the middle – above and below that a normal band of yellow – then a slightly thinner blue hoop – then normal width yellow then a still thinner blue hoop then yellow
try drawing it – might work.
re MacCalmont quarters/halves – have seen a pretty naive painting on a web site , something along the lines of "intaglio fine arts" and those are definite quarters , even on the sleeves which always looks odd to me – either halved or solid colours seem the norm.
the best painting of Isinglass I’ve seen is by Emil Adam and that looks like halves although if you look closely maybe a hint of a colour lower down before the jockeys breeches ? Tommy Loates was small but maybe not that small !! Then , have seen a painting of the Derby finish and definitely halved colours – more research.
Lot of typing to prove nothing – sorry.
No joy with Kincsem other than they look pale on the following website if you scroll down.
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Cambuscan.html
More research !! Cheers
Hi Ivanjica
have a look at what I posted on 24/06/2010 @ 20.10 to see what I could find for the four you still need.
cheers
I.Venture To Cognac – thank goodness for another excuse to look at yellowing newspapers that I DID know would come in handy sometime.
1980 GN pullout says
Mannyboy owned by Frank Pullen trained by Josh Gifford and ridden by Richard Rowe 40 or 50 to one according to the bookies adverts
presumably traveling like the winner until it fell at the first.
Royal Blue Chocolate slvs striped cap
cheers
The more you look the more you find ………….
Ogdens Derby Entrants 1929 show a horse owned by Sir Matthew Wilson the owner’s colours described on the back as Cerise Bronze cap
I reckon those colours were being used by G Wilson in 1933 for Loaningdale , so my description of pink & yellow was a misinterpretation of what was illustrated.
Apologies.
Right Ivanjica , you said tracing the Comtesse may be tricky. Have found the following out.
Comtesse de la Valdene was born Diana Guest ( sister of Raymond , Sir Ivor etc , Guest).
Subsequently became Mme Allen Manning , found that via google & France-Galop site which gives details of most successful owners , jockeys in their big races.
“googling” Diana guest valdene manning then leads to a return quoting Be My Guest on Wikipedia ( I know it’s not the font of “all” knowledge but it can’t all be made up ) .
That says Diana Guest Manning paid a record price for that colt who subsequently ran in the 1977 Derby with Eddie Hide wearing Yellow Green armlets Green cap.
That agrees with an entry in the 1973 B&H book of colours for Mrs A Manning so I suppose the only doubt/question is was she registered with those back in 1966. She also owned the 1969 Irish Derby winner Prince Regent as C de la V. – can’t find a picture anywhere – yet.
What do you reckon ?
Have been on the Sporting Horse Database you mentioned earlier – great website and I agree that Nonoalco certainly looks like a quartered cap.
For my sins , as well as trying to trace the colours of all the classic winners I’ve also been trying to get a photo/image of them all as well – obviously never going to get a lot of the early ones but amazing how many you can get one way or another. That site helped me with some elusive ones so thanks.
Am losing the plot re Prince Palatine – knew what they were all along. Shame I spent ages finding classic winning colours only to forget to look at them in this case.
Can’t tell you where I found them but ……
French Grey Vermillion hoops Vermillion cap
Think we may be barking up the wrong tree with Pilkington. If you look at ………
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/PrincePalatine.html
there’s a picture of Prince Palatine after winning the Gold Cup and it looks like hoops are involved .
on a more positive note though if you “google” ( worldwide not just UK ) the following
lord elveden racing colours you get a result relating to the Guinness Book of Turf Records 2nd edition go have a look at that so close but can’t zoom in however …….
Then “google” Lord Elveden and you’ll see reference to Lord Iveagh who I’m sure you know has Terra Cotta Black seams collar & cuffs with qtd cap
You squint at the picture of Khalkis and we may be there.
Didn’r realeise the link between Elvedon , Iveagh & Guiness. Learn something every day !Cheers
I.Re cigarette cards I spent a good while just searching on the internet which was very useful & interesting – then found e-bay !!! so now own a fair few – try to get good quality at cheap prices which is possible.
Have you been on the New York Public “Digital” Library site ? some good stuff on there if you’re bored with football nypl.org/nypdigital ……. Gets you somewhere close and lots of racing related cards are accessible.
You could be right about T Pilkington although a long time lapse between what you’re after and the B&H book – of course as it’s Sir T….. then probable/possible they’ve been passed on through the family.
1933 G Wilson Pink Yellow cap Ogdens Prominent Horses of 1933 God Bless those old smokers
Cheers all
Crepello
stick with us please – don’t know who had a go at you or about what , couldn’t find it on this thread which is all I was concerned about.
nice to be in contact with similar minded fans ( or anoraks if you prefer ) good to have something to occupy us with until we are able to draw our pensions at 75 !!
Hi Ivanjica , agree that the Wertheimer blue does seem to have "lightened" with time. Also have a revised opinion of Nonoalco’s cap but have only changed from a plain pink cap to a plain grey – will stumble across the answer some time .
here’s some I got from a set og Ogdens cigarette cards from 1906.
Neumann white black hooped slvs ( or maybe armlet ) white cap
Purefoy light blue & black hoops light blue cap
Belmont Red body Maroon slvs Black cap
Sir Alfred Butt’s are Yellow Blue graduated hoops Blue cap
Howell Jackson I got Dark Red Mauve cap
Good to be back searching again !!
CheersCan’t remember what year it was but pretty sure the National your US friends would appreciate was the one where the winner was ridden by Elizabeth Taylor.
Only looked about 13 at the time , different criteria for jockeys in those days – stable lad bore an uncanny resemblance to Mickey Rooney so there’s another link.