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Hi grasshopper. I’m really feeling somewhat unwell. Apart from agreeing with your earlier post, am I seeing things in that you’ve only made 47 posts? Shome mishtake shurely?
Cormack jottered me briefly for being better looking than him, but then he relented………….
Careful now, insomniac
Let’s take this off at a tangent…………………….why the concern about an EU overlord taking your liberty away piece by piece, when exactly the same thing is happening in the domestic UK?
Whats the general beef about the EU?
Its oft-said that one of the main reasons people are wary, is the lack of accountability of the Commission.
Well, with the body-count piling up in Iraq, and one of the heros of the tale heading off into a dollar-spattered sunset with a smile on his face, it seems that we demand something of the Commission (accountability), that we do not demand of our own domestic politicians.
Accountability can’t therefore be a real reason, can it?
So what is it?
If IDS wanted to help poor people he want sort out the druproblem in this country which sucks communities dry of money and the will to live.
Which drug problem are we talking about though, Davros?
The one where rich kids hoover up coke on their way to the next party, and which doesn’t prevent them from playing a full part in society?
The one where middle-aged (nearly!) old stoners like me, have the occassional toot in the confines of their own home?
Or the one where the poorest kids, having no prospects whatsoever, turn to all manner of intoxicating substances, to provide momentary relief from their humdrum existence?
IDS has no credibility, because he doesn’t understand the differences between these groups, and is still an advocate of zero tolerance. I find it quite nauseating when Tories rattle on about the underclass, when it was those f*ckers that created them in the first place.
To answer Mesh’s question, I’d rather neither was the Prime Minister – as both are completely ‘Establishment’. I suppose it’s early days for Brown, and he might still surprise us (100/1 chance, in my book) but you still seem to be under the impression that there is actually any meaningful political differences between the pair.
There isn’t.
Both will let the market decide, both will distribute the wealth in a way which is totally loaded against those who need it most, and both are in charge of political entities who are so hamstrung by party loyalty, that they are mentally incapable of bring any genuinely new ideas to the table.
Also, I’d venture that about 94% of current MP’s (and future candidates, for that matter) are nest-feathering, self-serving bounders, whose egos prevent them for acknowledging their inherent incompetence.
I’d rather lollys mate was PM.
Seriously.
grasshopper – my bringing up the crowning of Kauto Star as 2m 4f champion was to illustrate the point that the National Hunt pattern races outside of Cheltenham just aren’t given the recognition they deserve, especially by the trade media.
That’s probably a truism, david. But just because the media take that line, doesn’t make it so. That’s my point.
won’t comment on the Flat pattern, as I am not familiar with it,
Grass
In a way, you need to because thats the comparison being drawn!
Lets just say that the big prizes are more evenly spread on the flat (derby or arc anyone?) Very few flat horses, if any, start the season primed for one race only. A lot of the appeal is seeing how they (and the form) develops.
Im not saying i prefer one code or the other particularly, but you have to admit that when a champion like Newmill is preped in the way he was, its all a bit deflating….
Clivex, the point is that the big prizes are distributed evenly throughout the Jumps season too. It’s the contention that they are not, and that the Festival is the only event that counts, that I take issue with.
I hear what you are saying about Newmill, but again, that kind of campaign is the exception rather than the rule. And anyway, its not like was left in his box until Cheltenham.
Now don’t get me worng – Kauto Star was VERY VERY impressive at Aintree. But I still believe that he was crowned champion 20f horse not on what he did in the Old Roan Chase but on the basis of what he WOULD have done to that division if he had been campaigned at 2m 4f and not stepped up to 3m. You can’t tell me that Monets Garden or Taranis would not have demolished that field in the same manner as KS did.
davidbrady, you believe what you believe – thats fine.
But your basing your belief on what you think the handicappers think. In my opinion, it is perfectly reasonable position for the handicapper to figure Kauto Star’s Old Roan performance better than anything put up by Monets Garden or Taranis in the latest season.
You hold a different view, which is fair enough.
However, I fail to see what any of this has to do with the Cheltenham Festival?
Surely if Cheltenham did over-shadow everything else, we wouldn’t be debating a race which was run at Aintree in November, barely a month into the season proper?
The allocation of “Champions” is a completely subjective paper exercise, whose value lies in the debate it generates – and not with the gongs they hand out. It’s not really anything to get worked-up about.
Edit: ……………unless they are slating old Beefy, that is.
But a horse can win the Haldon Gold Cup, the Tingle Creek, the Desert Orchid Chase, and the Chandler and still not be thougth of as a Champion unless he wins the Queen Mother Champion Chase at Cheltenham in March.
If Monet’s Garden had won the Ryanair Chase at the Festival, do you think he would have been acclaimed as the best 2m 4f horse last season, because despite winning the only 2 Gr1 chases at that distance during the season, that accolade was given to Kauto Star. THAT, IMO, makes a mockery of the "rest" of the National Hunt pattern season.
davidbrady, the only barometer of merit which counts is form displayed – not what fixture you won at.
You’ll find that Kauto Star won the 2m4f ‘title’ based on what he achieved in a handicap over that trip at Aintree in November. It had precisely nothing to do with his Cheltenham run – which rather blows a hole in your theory.ClintM, totally agree that the C4 Racing team are, with the odd exception, complete and utter muppets, when it comes to the Festival.
But too many (and this will make Dandan go off on one now..) like Sublimity and Newmill last year have hopelessly one eyed campaigns
I don’t agree with the statement ‘too many’, clivex……………these horses are the exception rather than the rule……..
Not very much, as it happens.
My TV has been pretty much cabbaged ever since Virgin took over Telewest…………useless arseholes.
All entirely right and true, GH, but would you agree or disagree that there is more of a perception that Cheltenham is regarded as the be-all and end-all by many………..
I don’t know, Jeremy.
To a certain extent, Cheltenham is the be-all-and-end-all.
It’s the perception that this is to the detriment of the rest of the Jumps season, that I disagree with.
That, and the suggestion that Jumps racing has any less of a ‘pattern’ than the Flat. The evidence would suggest that anyone holding this position is either mistaken, or wilfully ignoring the evidence (hence my suspisions about Flattie propaganda…….they’re everywhere you know
)But in response to that, the flat has the advantage of pretty evenly spread targets throughout the season. There is a lot less of a tendency for the rather depressing two or three (sometimes dubious) runs …then Cheltenham
This is the kind of thing I’m talking about, clivex.
It is a complete and utter myth that there is no Jumps ‘pattern’.
I won’t comment on the Flat pattern, as I am not familiar with it, but if I was the trainer of a top-class 2m chaser, I’d probably be thinking of a campaign geared around the Haldon Gold Cup, the Tingle Creek, the Desert Orchid Chase, and the Chandler, before a run in the Champion Chase.
That, for my money, is a defined pattern of “pretty evenly spread targets throughout the season”, and it is a whopper of huge proportions to suggest that the Flat is in any way ‘advantaged’ in this regard.
There is a jumps ‘Pattern’. It is there, and not even all that difficult to find.
# Have all bumpers on the AW, perhaps on the end of flat cards. Nothing worse then seeing young horses being hammered on very soft or very hard ground……….
Most Bumper horses would be 5yo or 6yo, I would imagine. I’m no vet, but I would have thought running 2yo’s on quick summer ground might do more damage?
Perhaps we should ban all 2yo races, and run all 3yo+ Flat races as novelty, no-betting heats, at the start of Jumps cards??
To make the spectacle interesting, the Flat jockeys could be made to wear It’s A Knockout style foam costumes, with their saddles attached to the starting stalls by elastic.
“Oh how we laughed when Ryan Moore got ‘the yank’ mere feet from winning”
Personally, I think this is a winner, and I will be submitting it Edward Gillespie forthwith.
Flat fans should be concerned. Gillespie will do anything that will increase cash-flow at HQ.
I do enjoy Cheltenham immensely… but I do feel that the NH game suffers because of the overwhelming importance of the meet
That it certainly does. Other meetings are also available!
gc
I never buy into this argument.
Firstly, I disagree with the assumption that "the Cheltenham target" in and of iself is a bad thing. I think it makes perfects sense to have a ‘championship’ at the seasons end.
Secondly, I disagree with the statement that other meetings are over-shadowed by the always-looming spectre of the Festival. The Open meeting, the Tingle Creek meeting, the Tripleprint meeting, the Hennessey meeting, the King George meeting, the Charlie Hall meeting, the BetFair Chase meeting, the James Nicholson meeting, the Christmas meeting at Leopardstown………………..to name just a few off the top of my head; all of these meetings (and many more I haven’t mentioned) stand-up entirely by themselves, with Cheltenham only a consideration after-the-fact.
I agree that Cheltenham is the apex of the season, and is rightly antipated by all. But it is always viewed (speaking for myself) in the context of the wider season. The Festival itself relies heavily on these other ‘supporting’ meetings – without them, the it would become an irrelevance.
I find it odd that others would view it any differently, to be honest, and maintain my suspicion that it is nothing but Flattie propaganda.
"insomniac":3le7lt8m wrote: Don’t get your sporran in a twist about it.
Good one insomniac.
When I watch the BBC I want both sides of the argument equally and fairly presented; that is, after all, the BBC’s remit
Really? I don’t agree (no surprise there then).
What I want was to see from the BBN News team are a factual representation of a given situation, based on the most up-to-date information available. A news programme is not the correct forum to establish ‘both sides of the argument’ – it should do nothing more than broadcast the facts, and leave interpretation up to the individual. Broadly speaking, thats what it does, and does it reasonably well imo.
insomniac, the Balen Report is an internal BBC document. Someone external to the BBC requested a copy via Freedom Of Information, but it was ruled as being outwith the scope of FOI, because it was produced for journalistic purposes. End of story.
It is a gross misrepresentation to suggest that the BBC are profligately wasting your, or anyone elses. licence fee, fighting publication via the courts. It is simply not the case.
As for the rest of it, well, we could argue back and forward all day, couldn’t we?
Arafat was a hero to many Palestinians, and it’s probably fair to say he was an icon too. Does a BBC reporter using these words make him/her biased?
As for yer man at the Hamas rally? Do you have an example of a biased report from him? He might be a Beeb journalist, but he’s entitled to a personal point of view as well.
The last point about the cleric is just cobblers…………….the BBC’s only comment appears to be “Events like today offer grounds for optimism”, and I confess I’m finding it hard to see any anti-Israeli bias in that statement.
Lets be quite clear……………..there was absolutely no comparison between the threats faced by Lebanese civilians, and Israeli civilians, during the recent war. It is therefore perfectly normal that the reports were primarily about the occupation of Lebanon and the war raging there, rather than about random rocket attacks into Israel (and its not as if these events went totally unreported anyway).
Anyone suggesting that there was an equitable threat faced by each side, is likley to find themselves incarcerated in the nearest asylum before too much longer.The BBC are there to report on the facts………………if the facts happen to show something you dont personally like, it does not make the reporting biased.
The rest of your post meanders away from the point you were trying to make about the BBC, and appears to address some wider anti-Israeli questions.
I’d just like to point out that you can be anti-Israeli-policy, without being in any way anti-Semitic. This “anti-semitic” bollocks is routinely trotted out by those who refuse to tolerate any criticism of Israel. The logic goes “He doesn’t like Israeli policy, so he must hate Jews”.
Its infantile garbage.
Don’t try and dress Israel up to be something it is not. It may be a democracy (whatever that means), but it’s one which has violated International Law for 40 years.
