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Just because you don’t like this as an answer does not mean I have misunderstood your incredibly straightforward point that success is more about the quality of the horses than it is the trainer.
It might be straightfoward but it’s also correct. are you saying that mullins is somehow more important than the quality of horses he trains? that if he trained a lot of clapped out sellers that he would still be able to train champions?
this “ridiculously good” strike rate that you point to, is mostly to do with the fact that he trains some of the most expensive horses around. Like Nicky Henderson does in the Uk. Like Nicholls did when he had his dominant period. Like the trainers who work for Gigginstown, like Gordon Elliot. Like Aidan O’Brien on the flat, (supposedly another “genius”) and Godolphin. Surely that’s the most straightforward point of all?
He has all these backers like Rich Ricci and other wealthy owners; their chequebook is the largest reason for his success. if you don’t understand this simple point then I wonder if it is you on the “wind-up”
But what makes him more exceptional is his ability to improve horses from other yards.
This is why I question what “methods” he is using. What is he doing that’s so different from the other trainers who had these horses? I’m just curious to know, as noone seems to explain it, apparently it’s just some mysterious force behind the scenes and we’ll never know
I may be wrong but You seem to be implying that he is using drugs on his horses.
There are many reasons why people are better at things than others. Judgement is most important, facilities and staff follow close behind. Marginal gains are also important
I don’t know if Mullins uses drugs or not. I hope not, he’s not suspicious in the same way that certain American trainer who brings his bulls over for the royal meeting is. But when someone is completely dominant, when there doesn’t seem to be an obvious reason why they should be (beyond the obvious, they have more money) then in this day and age with so much doping going on in other sports, it seems almost naive to not question why someone should be so far ahead of the rest. Didn’t some high profile trainers, like Philip Hobbs, Hughie Morrison and a bit further back, Nicky Henderson get in trouble for breaching doping rules? And I seem to recall Hannon and Godolphin (who had a trainer banned altogether from the flat, if I recall, apparently an “isolated incident”) also getting into trouble in the flat game. And yet every bringing up the subject seems to drive some posters into fits of apoplexy, who seem offended that anyone should dare attack their idols, their “geniuses”
As for the marginal gains argument, I wonder if when Lance Armstrong was winning everything, people put his dominance down to marginal gains? that he’d do one or two things a little bit better than everyone else, and that was why he was miles ahead of everyone? it seems a poor answer to me.
I’ve always just thought that the whole role of the trainer in horse racing is overrated. if I’m a golfer, or a tennis player, or a footballer, then the trainer has some influence. but ultimately it’s me that goes out and plays the shots. And the same analogy should apply to horse racing, that the trainer can only do so much. But some just can’t seem to accept that.
He has all these backers like Rich Ricci and other wealthy owners; their chequebook is the largest reason for his success. if you don’t understand this simple point then I wonder if it is you on the “wind-up”
Whilst they aren’t exactly spending small either….There are trainers supplying other trainers with horses at a greater expense….and have done for some time….his angle has been his buyers and contacts in FR.
I can’t believe you’ve turned this into a drugs conversation
I also can’t believe you think training racehorses is easy..i presume you have a lot of experience with horses? their fragility and the general complicated nature of the animal?
Juggling owners, buying the right horses more than than buying crap? Placing them to win, get blacktype + to peak at the big events?
Have a look at the horse that beat Douvan, Bellshill(and Bordini) and Listen Dear in their P2Ps and Fr races..
What have they done? what have the others done? Doesn’t just “happen”…
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!I can’t believe you’ve turned this into a drugs conversation
I wasn’t intending to, but noone else seemed to come up with a worthwhile reason why he’s supposedly so far ahead of the rest, other than the obvious one about money. And I do think it’s a subject that needs to be taken seriously when all sorts of sportsmen at the very top of the game are found to be doping all the time. Just the other day a well-known footballer missed a doping test.
In many ways this is why I prefer the betfair forum, apparently it isn’t the “home of intelligent horse-racing discussion” (and what a pretentious title that sounds) but you can throw ideas out there and question people at the top without being patronised and having your intelligence ridiculed by others. It seems to me on here that a lot of posters hate having their racing heroes questioned, which seems odd to me especially when none of these posters will ever met these people or have any contact with them. I admire Tiger Woods, but if you said to me he was doping at the peak of his fame, I wouldn’t be offended by it.
I also can’t believe you think training racehorses is easy..i presume you have a lot of experience with horses? their fragility and the general complicated nature of the animal?
Juggling owners, buying the right horses more than than buying crap? Placing them to win, get blacktype + to peak at the big events?
Have a look at the horse that beat Douvan, Bellshill(and Bordini) and Listen Dear in their P2Ps and Fr races..
What have they done? what have the others done? Doesn’t just “happen”…
This is what I mean about preferring other forums where your views don’t get ridiculed… just because I have no experience of working with horses does that mean my views don’t mean anything? Are you from Lambourn or Ascot? No?
People so far ahead of the rest in other sports. Phil Taylor, performance enhancing drugs? No chance. Ronnie O Sullivan, no chance. It is possible to be far ahead of the rest without using drugs.
Also you describe Mullins as dominant. He has a higher strike rate but you could argue that Elliot has been more dominant in the last 2 seasons than any trainer.
I would say its a fair statement that 99% of views don’t get ridiculed on here judge – only the ridiculous ones.
People so far ahead of the rest in other sports. Phil Taylor, performance enhancing drugs? No chance. Ronnie O Sullivan, no chance.
yes but my point would be that they are sportsmen, willie mullins isn’t a sportsman, he’s a trainer and in my view that demands much less of a skill level than someone like a Ronnie O’Sullivan. Ronnie I would describe as a snooker “genius.” His natural talent is unmistakeable. His potting ability, general strategic skills around the table and touch in and around the black when on a break, set him apart from the rest.
Others are describing Mullins as a “genius” (and not just Charlie- it seems a throwaway moniker these days- Clive is right, it’s tiresome) but without actually giving any reason why this is so. Don’t other lesser trainers have access to the same information that he does? where is the skill in getting horses fit that there is in making a 147 break? the skill it seems to me is in the horses themselves, whose innate ability sets them apart from the rest. Perhaps that is down to breeding, or other factors. And that seems a more understandable answer to me than describing the trainer himself as a “genius”
Apparently he has meticulous attention to detail. A rule of his in relation to washing horses is an example which he gave when asked. Training horses is a judgement thing. Its not just as simple as running horses on gallops and entering them in whatever races. You seem to be implying that there is very little skill involved. If there is such little skill then why aren’t there 100’s of trainers at the same level?
A trainer with poorer judgement may have been impatient and ran quevaga at Christmas every season. Would she have won at 6 Cheltenham festivals in a row if she had ran every Christmas?
There is also a very important skill of knowing what horses to buy. Douvan probably wouldn’t have topped the book at too many sales given the relatively low profile sire and ordinary first run in France.
Then there are decisions on where to run horses. He was under awful pressure to run Vautour in the Gold Cup but decided the Ryanair was best. Black Hercules was tipped by many including Patrick Mullins for the 4 miler at Cheltenham but Willie felt the JLT was the one for him and he won. That’s judgement. And you can’t teach things like that, its based on Instinct.
Did I honestly just read a comparison between a 147 & training hosses? Jaysus.
Judge, Mullins may use drugs during the off season, and I’m of the opinion personally that it’s quite common to strengthen up the horses using them during the summer (winter for flat horses) as the horses won’t really get tested away at the owners’ farm. ‘Summer on his back’ and ‘wintered well’ they like to call it.
But saying Mullins‘ stats and continued genius isn’t incredible is blasphemy. I believe he was one of the first to install a sand gallop, genius. He uses schooling races frequently to educate his horses, and it works, genius.
Superb raw materials help but the improvement he’s shown in a pile of horses coming from other yards shows it’s the mans methods as much as it is the horses. Gordon is the same.
I am glad others have decided to join the conversation, and it’s not just me an Judge (it’s a conversation Judge, not an argument). This is a game of opinions and everyone is entitled to their own. Judge, you take the opinion that the role of the trainer in horse racing is overrated. I am sure many share you view and a sensible conversation about that can be had. We disagree on the role and impact of the trainer, that’s fine.
I do agree with Voleur in that 99% of views on here don’t get ridiculed, only the ridiculous ones. Your stance on the roles of horse’s v trainer is obviously not ridiculous, it is very valid, but you are conflicting and vague in how you put your point across. Il give you an example.
I think Willie is a genius because his results are outstanding and better than anyone else. You want to know what makes him a genius. You want me to lay out exactly what he does that makes him a genius and differentiates him from other trainers and I don’t know. I don’t know. I do not see his meticulous attention to detail, instinct, judgement, patience and ability to handle pressure because I am not there. You deem my answer unsatisfactory, but have no problem saying to someone else minutes later ‘just because I have no experience of working with horses does that mean my views don’t mean anything’. I extend the same question you. ‘Just because I have no experience of working with Willie Mullins or other trainers, does that mean my views on him being a genius do not mean anything’. Pot kettle.
I am basing and supporting my view with a strike rate percentage that is clear for all to see and quantify. You are supporting your perfectly valid stance about the role of the trainer in horse racing with comments about drug use, Mo Farah’s trainer and poorly placed sporting analogies.
You mentioned people questioning your intelligence Judge – I wouldn’t worry – I don’t think we have seen it yet. He was under awful pressure to run Vautour in the Gold Cup but decided the Ryanair was best.
but isn’t it fairly obvious that Vautour wouldn’t get home in the gold cup, given that he didn’t get home in the king george. he was only under pressure i think because the owner wanted to win the gold cup and plenty of punters had backed him for it. hardly rocket science to switch him to the other race.
Judge, Mullins may use drugs during the off season, and I’m of the opinion personally that it’s quite common to strengthen up the horses using them during the summer (winter for flat horses) as the horses won’t really get tested away at the owners’ farm. ‘Summer on his back’ and ‘wintered well’ they like to call it.
if that’s true, how can he be a genius if he’s cheating?
But saying Mullins‘ stats and continued genius isn’t incredible is blasphemy
this is what i mean about preferring other forums. you can’t even criticize people on here without someone taking insult like you’ve slandered their grandmother or something. Jeez, lighten up a bit.
According to you he might well use performance enhancing drugs during the summer but it’s blasphemy to even critique the man. That suggests to me that you don’t take cheating seriously enough.You mentioned people questioning your intelligence Judge – I wouldn’t worry – I don’t think we have seen it yet. 😉 😉
I’m fairly confident my I.Q. is higher than yours Charlie although that’s by the by. Mullins comes across as pretty intelligent which is maybe another reason why so many put him on the pedestal. Wow, he washes his horses? Amazing.
I have no idea if Mullins is a “genius” or not, I’m just keen to shred all the mystery that surrounds the racehorse trainer. A lot of it seems like emperor new clothes stuff to me.
Ask a genius how he does it and he (or she) will say ‘I don’t know’. Many will say ‘and I don’t want to know’.
Whether racehorse trainers are geniuses, I’m not sure. Does a genius lose the magic touch with age as Vincent O’Brien appeared to do? Or go through spells of lost genius (very possible, imo, depending on life’s stresses) like Henry Cecil?
Good debate.
According to you he might well use performance enhancing drugs during the summer but it’s blasphemy to even critique the man. That suggests to me that you don’t take cheating seriously enough.
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