- This topic has 14 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
I know there is a reason for this, but forgotten. Someone asked on another forum and I thought knowledgeable TRF members would know the answer.
Why are horses allowed to run off 145, Spinning Bailiwick in 12:00 Lingfield today, when it is a 0-140 handicap? King John’s Castle also runs off a higher mark in the 3:05 Punchestown.
Value Is Everything145 on the AW? Crikey!!
Spinning Bailiwick is officially rated 56, but he carried a cumulative penalty of 14lb, so his effective mark is 70.
The King Johns Castle case is perplexing. One for Irish correspondents as I’m not up to speed with their handicapping rules
Over here horses who incur a penalty for a win are allowed to compete in subsequent races they’ve already been entered for even if that penalty takes them above the rating ceiling for their next race(s)
Hence the not unfamiliar sight of penalised horses carrying more than 11-10 or 12-00 (NH) with the excess pounds defining by how much the penalty has exceeded the official ceiling
Regarding Spinning Bailiwick:
He was entered for today’s race on Monday. At the time he was entered, he had not yet been reassessed for his win two days earlier, on November 28th, so his official rating at the time was still 56. The handicapper publishes revised ratings every Tuesday, which take into account performances up to and including the previous Saturday. These new ratings come into effect the following Saturday. For trainers wishing to run horses under a penalty, the “best” day to win a race on is Sunday, because the horse is not reassessed until the Tuesday nine days later, and therefore has 12 days (up to and including the Friday) to run under a penalty.So…Spinning Bailiwick won off 56 last Saturday, 28 Nov (he had also won three days earlier). He was entered for today’s race on Monday, one day before his revised mark was published. Monday was the last day he could have been entered for a 0-60 handicap; once his revised rating of 70 was published the following day, he no longer became eligible to be entered for races with a banding of under 70.
From the Orders and Rules:
133.2 For the purpose of determining whether a horse qualifies for a race, a Handicap Rating which is published on Tuesday of a particular week shall, unless the Authority directs otherwise, apply for races closing on that Tuesday through to the following Monday.Hope this helps!
145 on the AW? Crikey!!
Spinning Bailiwick is officially rated 56, but he carried a cumulative penalty of 14lb, so his effective mark is 70.Sorry Rory, got the two horses confused. It was King John’s Castle running off 145 in a 0-140. You know what I meant.
The Irish race was called an “Extended” handicap. If that make any difference? Or was his handicap mark changed between entering and weights being published? Or something.
Unlikely I would’ve thought.
Can’t be anything to do with penalties as he had not run for ages.Any Irish TRFers know?
Value Is EverythingRegarding Spinning Bailiwick:
He was entered for today’s race on Monday. At the time he was entered, he had not yet been reassessed for his win two days earlier, on November 28th, so his official rating at the time was still 56. The handicapper publishes revised ratings every Tuesday, which take into account performances up to and including the previous Saturday. These new ratings come into effect the following Saturday. For trainers wishing to run horses under a penalty, the “best” day to win a race on is Sunday, because the horse is not reassessed until the Tuesday nine days later, and therefore has 12 days (up to and including the Friday) to run under a penalty.So…Spinning Bailiwick won off 56 last Saturday, 28 Nov (he had also won three days earlier). He was entered for today’s race on Monday, one day before his revised mark was published. Monday was the last day he could have been entered for a 0-60 handicap; once his revised rating of 70 was published the following day, he no longer became eligible to be entered for races with a banding of under 70.
From the Orders and Rules:
133.2 For the purpose of determining whether a horse qualifies for a race, a Handicap Rating which is published on Tuesday of a particular week shall, unless the Authority directs otherwise, apply for races closing on that Tuesday through to the following Monday.Hope this helps!
Thanks Hugh (wish we had a smilie for thumbs up)
I see, so (just to be 100% certain); he ran off (carried) his revised mark of 70 having been entered at a time when his rating was only 56 (waiting to be reassessed).
NOT that he ran off his old mark of 56 with a double penalty? Did not notice any “(7 ex)” or even “(14lb ex)” on the racecard
Value Is EverythingThat’s right, on both counts. There were a couple of races Spinning Bailiwick could have run in under a double penalty in the second half of last week had connections so desired, but there would have been little point – the races available were better class ones (0-75 or 0-85) and under a double penalty Spinning Bailiwick would have effectively been running off 68 (2 x 6lb penalties), whereas by waiting for that weak 0-70 they got a few extra days to recover from the two previous runs and were only 2lb higher in a weaker race.
Reverting to the Irish race, I’m fairly sure that the term ‘extended handicap’ has no relevance, as it’s used to describe almost every handicap in the conditions of Irish NH racing.
Adding to the confusion is the fact that King Johns Castle is shown on the Turf Club website as having a current rating of 146 over fences, not 145!
There doesn’t seem to be anything in their rules that allows for horses with a rating above the published maximum to be entered, so my best guess is that this was a special concession to allow a horse to have a race – presumably he’d been denied chances recently by the spate of abandoned meetings.
Certainly the published rules in Ireland give their stewards almost unlimited powers of discretion in such matters, far more so than the UK rules.
AP
Alan, I reckon these extended handicaps work a bit like some of our classified stakes – where, for instance, in a 0-90 classified, horses rated, say, 88, 89 and 90 would all carry 9-00, but horses rated 93 and 95 would be allowed to race, but would have to carry 9-03 and 9-05 respectively.
For instance, there was an extended handicap run on the flat at Dundalk on 27 November won by Copper Dock. Eventual top weight in this race was Mountain Coral, carrying 9-11, off 96, but at the overnight stage top weight was Kargali, rated 108 and allotted 10-06; he was declared but didn’t run.
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that an extended handicap means that horses rated higher than the ratings threshold for the race can be entered, but their eventual weight depends on whether the remaining horses declared manage to get in the handicap; in other words, lower-rated horses don’t get pushed out of the handicap proper by the declaration of the high-rated horse. This is a bit like the upside-down handicap scenario, isn’t it?
Mind you, it still doesn’t explain why King John’s Castle’s mark was 145 rather than 146.
There doesn’t seem to be anything in their rules that allows for horses with a rating above the published maximum to be entered, so my best guess is that this was a special concession to allow a horse to have a race
Given that his last ‘regulation’ chase was at Clonmel as long ago as Feb ’08 when rated 140 and the current 145/146 was presumably awarded due to his second in the ‘unregulation’ Grand National in April ’08, perhaps this somewhat unusual set of circumstances helped sway the stewards – or whoever’s – minds towards granting him a ‘special concession’ to run on Sunday
Hugh,
That sounds logical – or at least as logical as anything about the Irish handicap system.
I sat on a Cheltenham preview panel with Phil Smith once and suggested that the handicap marks for the Irish runners were agreed over the phone in a conversation that went sonething like:
Morning Mr Smith and what mark would you suggest for XXX in the County Hurdle?
Smith : Morning Mr O’Brien, I’d suggest 136.
O’Brien : No, no, I had something like 114 in mind.
Smith : 132 ?
O’Brien : 118 ?
Smith : 129 ?
O’Brien : 125 ?
Smith : Done!
O’Brien : You certainly have been!
AP
For trainers wishing to run horses under a penalty, the "best" day to win a race on is Sunday, because the horse is not reassessed until the Tuesday nine days later, and therefore has 12 days (up to and including the Friday) to run under a penalty.
A rule Venetia Williams has been rather good at exploiting, along with the strange rule (IMO) that the winners of amateur-only handicaps don’t incur a penalty nto in open company.
When the revision of ORs was done with quill pen and abacus, and relayed to the relevant authorities by carrier pigeon, it was perhaps understandable that they were only tweaked weekly and required a further four days to actually be implemented…but now?
Isn’t this system long overdue an overhaul?
Or is it an enjoyable part of the punting conundrum that is best left as it is?
My legs straddle the fence – archaic but useful
A rule Venetia Williams has been rather good at exploiting, along with the strange rule (IMO) that the winners of amateur-only handicaps don’t incur a penalty nto in open company.
Also applies to apprentice & conditional races. Yet, despite receiving no penalty they still go up the handicap the same as winning any other race, a strange contradiction, surely it should be either both or neither.
No penalty can hardly be an incentive to run in these races as I have heard put forward by some, as only one horse can win them, the prize money is peanuts and not every horse is suited by running again quickly.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.