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The existing rules were "adequate", had the jockeys kept within those rules in valuable races. Unfortunately they didn’t, jockeys had a total disregard for them.
As you know, very few people felt the existing Guideline on strokes (it wasn’t a rule)
was
adequate. The new Rule on strokes (which is not a flexible guideline) is a mistake because it goes the wrong way and is inflexible, and probably realistically unworkable.
With the new, cushioned and aerated whip (introduced
after
the Guidelines) the number of strokes should have been
increased
, not
decreased
.
But this sensible option to solve the problem, with scientific backing (Tim Morris’s papers)
was not even considered
. That is part of the betrayal. Instead of "agonising" over "ignorance" (their word from the Report, not mine) the good folk at BHA should have used their intelligence to deal with it.
Do you agree or disagree that jockeys paid little attention to the existing whip rules in valuable races?
Value Is Everything"Pinza":2a7fe6e5 wrote:
Aren’t you worried about the Jockey Strikes forecast by
David Evans
(with
Nick Luck
an unwilling interlocutor) this afternoon?
Pinza,Nick Luck has never been unwilling in repeating ‘Big Statements’,provided its not coming from him,Jim Mcgrath is a master at ‘encouraging’John Francome to speak his mind too and Francome tells it exactly as it is,very few do on TV and i felt sorry for David Evans today as he was being professionally cajoled by both James Willoughby and Nick Luck but for those of us with the best interests of racing at heart is was great to hear a trainer stand up and be counted by openly criticisng this monumental error of judgement which will only open the biggest can of worms in racings long and distinguished history.
Do you agree or disagree that jockeys paid little attention to the existing whip rules in valuable races?
Ginge, Do Formula 1 Racing drivers,Footballers,Rugby players Boxers etc,etc,not do exactly the same thing in the heat of battle? Do they lose their prize money for doing so? Are they spoken too like naughty Schoolkids with a patronizing undertone.No they are Professional sports people trusted to make decisions we all make when we are ADULTS! The BHA are a bunch of dictators who think they will get away with this.Trust me they wont!
Good old
Paddy Power
who never misses a betting opportunity are going 6/4 there are No bans for the first 2 days of this new Whip regime,i see they are even prepared to make a book on what course the first offence will occur at! The RP report tonight that it is also an offence for a trainer or owner to re-imburse a jockey who falls foul of the new rules…………And how are they ever going to prove that??
There are 100’s of races every week and for every 1000 races that pass the ‘New rules Test’ it will only take one high profile race to **** it all up and it will and should a high profile jockey be required to break these rules in the Cheltenham Gold Cup owned by a high profile owner you can guarantee said jockey will be re-imbursed 10 fold and why? there’s only one Gold Cup, simple!There are 100’s of races every week and for every 1000 races that pass the ‘New rules Test’ it will only take one high profile race to **** it all up and it will and should a high profile jockey be required to break these rules in the Cheltenham Gold Cup owned by a high profile owner you can guarantee said jockey will be re-imbursed 10 fold and why? there’s only one Gold Cup, simple!
If the old rules were broken time and time again in the big races Gord, why would just one "high profile" race F it all up? You’re deliberately talking things up to unrealistic proportions, so they’re bound to fall.
If the new rules reduce the number of incidents, then they’ve done their job. I am sure it will take time for jockeys to get used to these new rules too.
Your latter point is well made, I said it was a possible problem on the other thread. A winning stable jockey of a big race might lose his winning prize money, but may also get "presents" for every small winner he rides for the rest of the season.
Value Is EverythingGinge,lets say for arguements sake a horse of
Denman
proportions comes along in the future,a great big raw recruit who like his namesake is brought along patiently and placed perfectly,do you think this horse will be allowed by those at the BHA to be able to reach the echelons of Denman? No of course not a horse like him will suffer because he wont be allowed to be ridden with the effort required to get the best out of him. Pathetic to tar everything with the same brush,this game is about making split second decisions by Professional Jockeys prepared to risk life and limb at every fence,only to be told at the business end of a race where horse and Jockey are as one to ease off,if that wont change the outcome of certain races,nothing will,there will be more questions than answers for sure!
http://horses.sportinglife.com/Video/Ra … 16,00.html
Denman shows his brilliance to win his second Hennessey it took 13 cracks of the whip from 2 out to seal it mind,would he have won with only 8 strikes? Not on your nelly,he would have tied up thinking he’d done enough!
…..and the runner up was hit more times!!
Great example and a sign of the type of performances that will be taken away!!
Just listen to what is said after the race aswell…the thrill and the excitement of it all!!
Ginge,lets say for arguements sake a horse of
Denman
proportions comes along in the future,a great big raw recruit who like his namesake is brought along patiently and placed perfectly,do you think this horse will be allowed by those at the BHA to be able to reach the echelons of Denman? No of course not a horse like him will suffer because he wont be allowed to be ridden with the effort required to get the best out of him. Pathetic to tar everything with the same brush,this game is about making split second decisions by Professional Jockeys prepared to risk life and limb at every fence,only to be told at the business end of a race where horse and Jockey are as one to ease off,if that wont change the outcome of certain races,nothing will,there will be more questions than answers for sure!
http://horses.sportinglife.com/Video/Ra … 16,00.html
Denman shows his brilliance to win his second Hennessey it took 13 cracks of the whip from 2 out to seal it mind,would he have won with only 8 strikes? Not on your nelly,he would have tied up thinking he’d done enough!
Of course nobody can say for certain what would have happened with these new rules Gord but…
In my opinion Denman would’ve won a lot easier than he did that day. Denman is much more genuine than his stable companion. What A Friend (who was whipped just as many times there) might be one who won’t do so well under the new rules. So you would have still had the spectacle of Denman winning just without as much whipping. Indeed, the new rules will probably help prominent runners, because it will be harder to make up ground.
Jockeys are not going to "ease off", just can’t rely on the whip so much as they used to. It should provide for better jockeyship, not worse.
Value Is EverythingI can’t afford a bet today because of these new whip rules.
I had to rush out and buy an abacus to keep count.
Not of the times a jockey hits a horse but to count the amount of bans we get in the first day
Should be good experience for apprentices as there will be no jocks riding by the end of the week
Paddy Power offering 6/4 no ban 1st two days. I think that is value given the profile of the new rules.
Having read the debate there does seem a distinct difference between the Flat and National Hunt. That the BHA did not make such a distinction does seem to be a big failing.
Thoroughbred horses are bred to race, if the RSPCA considers the sport as cruel it should be seeking to ban breeding not racing as then it will guarantee the cessation.
It has also been mentioned that true bred National Hunt horses are becoming less and less common. It has lead to a large number of horse racing under National Hunt rules not bred primarily to jump hurdles and fences, therefore to ask such animals to do something for which they are not specifically bred does come perilously close to "cruel" by definition.
On the flat in a big race, the deterrent to a jockey is simply not sufficient. When the winning horse can earn a place at stud, the financial benefits are potentially far more lucrative than by just winning the race. Unless you threaten to take the race away for a breach of the rules, then there is not adequate incentive for all parties to abide by the rules.
I think trying to apply the same principles to Flat and National Hunt race riding does not bode well.
Paddy Power offering 6/4 no ban 1st two days. I think that is value given the profile of the new rules.
Shocking value, any chance of 4/6 there will be a ban?
- Total Posts 17716
Racing Post
(printed) this morning majors on the jockeys’ fury. The headline is
RAILROADED!
in white on black banner, reserved for the most serious and desperate leaders.
There’s no mention, however, of their
online survey
, which demonstrated an equal fury amongst those punters and others registered to their website. It’s gone now, but at the last glance I took it had settled at
28% FOR the new rules, 72% AGAINST
.
Jockeys’ strikes look likely sooner rather than later on the evidence of the
Racing Post
leader.
Jockeys are being completely illogical here.
Presumably they are up in arms because they feel the new rules somehow disadvantages them. But against what?
- Total Posts 17716
Jockeys are being completely illogical here.
Presumably they are up in arms because they feel the new rules somehow disadvantages them. But against what?
No,
Corm
. They are up in arms because of the draconian financial penalties, which amount in Kevin Darley’s eyes to a possible restraint of trade. He is demanding immediate talks with BHA to address the situation.
The only question is: why has it taken them since September 27th to get their act together on this? Stable, door, horse, bolted…
They can avoid any and all penalties Pinza. By sticking to the rules.
I suspect they want the penalties to remain light enough so they can ignore the rules as appropriate.
I’m glad they’re up in arms about the penalties, might stop them abusing their position of responsibility in respect of their mounts.
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