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It’s fine already, Pompete. Really really. Water off this wet Liberal’s back.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
I find some of the posts on this thread laughable quite frankly. Some don’t want to discuss the subject at all (will not help) and some seem to be approaching the sport with some sort of corinthian spirit that simply does not exist in reality.
sixfieldsboy
I’m perfectly happy to discuss the matter with anyone on this thread, whatever their opinion. I post under my own name and anyone who wishes to discuss my opinions face to face only has to let me know when they are visiting Scotland and I’d be quite happy to have a chat about the game.
The thread is about corruption being ‘endemic’ in the game. If I honestly beleived that corruption was blighting the game to that extent then I very much doubt any interest in it.
There are faults with some parts of racing, the organisation of the sport could certainly be improved and I that point I feel many on here have positive contributions to make towards that, just a few being in a postiion to have a minor influence.
A few on here quite happily ramble on about how the game is ‘bent’ yet are clearly still quite happy to bet on it.
Schooling in public still happens but is infinitely better policed than it was in my younger days. I’ve covered this before on this thread, but the strokes that were pulled in the 60s and 70s wouldn’t have an earthly of getting past the stewards these days. Stewards are much maligned, but the standard of their performance has made a quantum leap over the last 20 years, aided by knowledgeable stewards’ secretaries and a plethora of new technology in the video field.
Jockeys Jumping off horses? Quite frankly I get cheesed off with this old chestnut that gets aired too regularly on the Forum. Denis O’Regan was accused of ‘jumping off’ Artless at Perth when the horse violently changed direction in mid-air over the first hurdle giving O’Regan no earthly chance of staying aboard. Another incident where the hypothesis of ‘jumping off’ was aired saw a hurdler at Cartmel whack a hurdle then stumble shooting the jockey over the head. It’s like catching a stick in the spokes of your bike and wondering why you disappear over the handlebars, as I did when I was younger, and it ain’t fun! The only genuine jump-off accusation that stuck was that of Sean Fox at Fontwell, and I wasn’t 100% convinced that one. I can believe that one or two have taken the jump off route on a few nutcase novice chasers but that’s purely self preservation.
Laying on Betfair has opened up an avenue for corruption and one I’m sure has been used by people within the game. However, policing of Betfair accounts and tracking of mobile phone records means there is a big risk attached. Can anyone honestly say that bookmakers wouldn’t have tapped jockeys sometime in the past and layed horses on information received. Yes it happens, but it’s policed and, even if some of the charges don’t stick, the exercise of attempted prosecutions at least lets the accused know that the authorities are aware of them.
In built bias against the punter? Of course there is, always has been and always will be, it’s called the bookies’/layers’ margin.
A ‘proven scandal’ damaging the sport. It may do in the short term, but in the long-term I doubt it. In my opinion, Keiran Fallon is a proven idiot but no more than that. If nothing else a scandal where the perpetrator is caught at least signals that the sport is addressing it’s problems. There will be uninformed rubbish written in the papers, but then that happens on an everyday basis about a myriad of subjects and ‘todays news is tomorrows chip paper’.
‘Luckily for the powers that be in racing, the british working class (and it is these people that keep the sport going!) will bet on the toss of the coin and would probably bet tails on a two headed coin if you sold em it properly.’ – For ‘racing’ read ‘life’, and ’twas ever thus! People are greedy, they want something for nothing. People go into betting shops and play on fruit machinesand, worse of all bet on cartoon racing, which sums up the betting public to me. To a certain extent if these people are betting on racing ‘against me’ then bring ’em on, more chance if I’m opposing ill-informed money.
I’m clearly p***ing in the wind against a few on this thread. I’m normally have a ‘cup half full’ outlook rather than a ‘cup half empty’ view and I suspect I’m preaching to the unconvertable with some.
There are corrupt elements in the game, as in all walks of life, but the game itself is not inherently corrupt.
A well reasoned response and we will have to agree to disagree. Being on the side of the high street punter (who are up against it, lets face it), I believe that the sport needs to do everything in it’s power to create a level playing field as possible.
There are any number of reasons (i.e trainers playing the handicap system and the bookies overround etc etc) that legitimately put the punter at a disadvantage. What we don’t need is any more hinderances to a fair bet!
Maybe the game is not inherently corrupt but it is most definately heavily biased against the general betting public. Get the balance wrong and you could fatally damage the sport amongst its bread and butter support. How long will the likes of Kenyon sniff around malpractise within the sport without uncovering something serious?
Anyone know what percentage of owners end up in profit each year?
And what percentage of punters do so?
I’d imagine it is about the same, would I be right?
My opinion is that in Britain the system is very fair to punters. I might like Barry and co to bet to 100% but that would not be fair on them.
Mark
The Ginger PreacherValue Is EverythingSurely the advent of Betfair has in many ways swung things in the favour of the punter? It is the people who insist on sitting in the shops and betting at SP who get done. Yet they still do the same thing and moan, which is either ignorance, laziness, or they don’t really care that much but in true british style, like to moan..
- Total Posts 17716
Surely the advent of Betfair has in many ways swung things in the favour of the punter? It is the people who insist on sitting in the shops and betting at SP who get done. Yet they still do the same thing and moan, which is either ignorance, laziness, or they don’t really care that much but in true british style, like to moan..
Not everyone cares for staring at a computer screen for 15 minutes prior to every bet they have. Neither are they all ignorant or moaners.
Lazy; maybe – don’t care; possibly – laugh at those that deem it essential; incessantly.
How prevalent are these meaningful last minute market moves in the better races?
Top handicaps and pattern…either code?
Sure there will be examples but the majority of these markets barely shift in the last half hour anyway. If that…
Surely the advent of Betfair has in many ways swung things in the favour of the punter? It is the people who insist on sitting in the shops and betting at SP who get done. Yet they still do the same thing and moan, which is either ignorance, laziness, or they don’t really care that much but in true british style, like to moan..
Not everyone cares for staring at a computer screen for 15 minutes prior to every bet they have. Neither are they all ignorant or moaners.
Lazy; maybe – don’t care; possibly – laugh at those that deem it essential; incessantly.I don’t deem it essential – Since they banned smoking the background smell of urine is enough to put me off.. I generally don’t stare at the screen for 15 minutes before the off either. I have nothing against people betting in the shops. I have an issue with people who moan about it when they know the truth… Speak with your feet on this one and not your mouth.
The betting ring is the last vestige of value in the physical world.
You pigeons of doom wouldn’t half miss it too.
All the usual suspects are here; (the losers, the coolers who could jinx King Midas) all of them bashing rotting planks on their foreheads and dribbling onto their cassocks
Marvellous stuff. I particularly like, ‘pigeons of doom’. There isn’t enough poetry on these pages.
- Total Posts 17716
I don’t deem it essential – Since they banned smoking the background smell of urine is enough to put me of.
Serves you right for sitting at home!
Marvellous stuff. I particularly like, ‘pigeons of doom’.
Were John Shuttleworth ever to start an Emo band, this would have to be its name.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Mark
You wrote.
"No Idea, I sugest you change the first line of your post just in case it gets you and TRF in trouble."I made it clear that it was my opinion and not a fact. You cannot get in trouble for an opinion, you can get in trouble if you profess to know something and say it when it is clearly not true.Libel
You are correct I did not listen to the transcripts of the Fallon trial as I doubt many on here did.
You miss the point I am making. Just because trials get dropped and no evidence is offered is not always because there is no case to answer. Do not beleive everything you read in the papers about how the police make a mess of cases, it can be a large number of things that the press never report on for a variety of reasons.
As I also said if you gamble you take the chance knowing that it may be corrupt.
- Total Posts 158
i hear of people stopping horses to get them down the handicap all the time. they are either run out of there distance or never put into the race. a large percentage of new horses are stopped 3 times as they are given there handicap mark judged on its 3 runs you will notice if you read the form that most handicap debutants have run for eg, 6f, 6f, 6f then handicap debut 1 mile gambled stupidly and romps in. hapens all the time. makes sense for the owner really , why get handicapped to the top of its game when you can get a handicap mark around 20-30lbs less what it should be.
you gotta be wise to these goings on and keep a eye out for handicap debutants.Mark,
I am afraid if you think Fallon was innocent then you certainly look at life through rose tinted glasses. I hasten to add that this is just my opinion and maybe he was but I doubt it.If you think that everybody who has a case dropped against them or they are found not guilty is innocent then I admire you.
Yes some will undoubtedly be innocent but likewise some will be guilty.
Horse racing is corrupt and always will be, you will never stamp it out and who is to say that some at the top are not in on some of the corruptness that goes on. Who knows?? Not me.
If you gamble it is the risk you take.
By your first line you intimate that only a gullible person would believe Fallon was innocent. Then try to water it down by saying it is an opinion.
Yet unlike the judge and jury, without reading / listening to everything said in the court room. You have come to the "opinion" Fallon was guilty.
All the people I know who read (Racing Post) what was reportedly said in court, was amazed the case against Fallon ever came to court.
To think you know better than the judge (without hearing what he heard in court) is in my opinion exceedingly arrogant.
Mark
Value Is Everythingi hear of people stopping horses to get them down the handicap all the time. they are either run out of there distance or never put into the race. a large percentage of new horses are stopped 3 times as they are given there handicap mark judged on its 3 runs you will notice if you read the form that most handicap debutants have run for eg, 6f, 6f, 6f then handicap debut 1 mile gambled stupidly and romps in. hapens all the time. makes sense for the owner really , why get handicapped to the top of its game when you can get a handicap mark around 20-30lbs less what it should be.
you gotta be wise to these goings on and keep a eye out for handicap debutants.If a trainer runs a horse three times at 6f when he is bred to be better at 1m is not stopping horses. The horse when it runs at 6f is still trying to win. Therefore it is NOT STOPPING HORSES. It is up to the punter to read the form and breeding to identify horses who will improve when stepped up or down in trip.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RUNNING HORSES AT WHATEVER TRIP, AS LONG AS IT IS TRYING HIS BEST AT THAT TRIP.
Mark
Value Is EverythingLet’s take maidens, a lot of punters think only a few are trying. This is wrong.
Some trainers do not get their horses spot on for their debuts at two. One well known trainer over the past few years has something like a 3% strike rate first time out with 2 year olds, and around 23% second time out. This is not to say the debutant will not be trying, it will win if good enough. But once a punter knows this type of statistic it makes it easier to pinpoint winners.Of course a debutant should not have a very hard race first time out, should not be whipped as much. Otherwise it may leave a psycological mark for it’s future career. But it still is trying to win.
So get your wallet out and buy some good form books / look it up on the internet. And stop moaning about non-tryers.
Preaching over, for now.
Mark
The Ginger PreacherValue Is Everything- Total Posts 158
Let’s take maidens, a lot of punters think only a few are trying. This is wrong.
Some trainers do not get their horses spot on for their debuts at two. One well known trainer over the past few years has something like a 3% strike rate first time out with 2 year olds, and around 23% second time out. This is not to say the debutant will not be trying, it will win if good enough. But once a punter knows this type of statistic it makes it easier to pinpoint winners.Of course a debutant should not have a very hard race first time out, should not be whipped as much. Otherwise it may leave a psycological mark for it’s future career. But it still is trying to win.
So get your wallet out and buy some good form books / look it up on the internet. And stop moaning about non-tryers.
Preaching over, for now.
Mark
The Ginger Preacherif you owned a racehorse and knew it was better at a mile why would you run it over 6f. . simple to get it down the handicap or give it a prep run..
You do not know it will be better at a mile than 6f until it is tried at both distances. Just because a horse is bred for a mile does not mean it will get it.
Anyway, even if the horse already has good form at 1m, there is nothing wrong with running it at 6f. As long as it is trying it’s best to win. If it is not good enough to win I do not see a problem.
Mark
Value Is Everything
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