TRF Hall Of Fame Nominations

[Gerald]

No logic Max, just a bit of fun. Although Juwwi is famous for winning off 2 day (and 1 day?) breaks.

I haven’t nominated many chasers, so Manifesto.

Although Cormack stated how many positions are available in the Hall of Fame, he didn’t specifically say that people’s nominations were limited to that number, if any of you want to make a few more.

When I made my first posting I asumed that everyone would know who Lord Admiral Rous was. Just in case some don’t, here goes. He was a person and not a horse – that is Lord High Admiral you are thinking of. He wrote The Laws And Practice of Horse Racing,1866, was Honorary handicapper of the Jockey Club, and author of the Weight For Age scale. He used to ride alongside races, checking out which horses were trying.

[Euro]

Himself,

Oops did I over rate SB? Sorry am working away from home at the mo, doing this from memory. knew it was either 146 or 145. Anyway:

A pound is neither here nor there, especially when one considers the ludicrous ratings the tea boy at Timeform gave Arkle and Flyingbolt.

[gamble]

Dancing Brave possessed
an electrifying burst of speed
rarely seen on a grass surface
Grevillle Strarkey’s perched bottom
well formed slouch not muscularly wasted
did not,
it sat in its hutch on a worrisome wednesday,
sweating and dreaming
of a well deserved retirement
and whatever was going on in the mind above
that day
only Epsom hilllocks truly knew
but Alex Bird had a twinkling and
he could – would have
told you
that the true master
that rare longfellow knew where to be
stomeface sixth as you rounded
but Breville sweat ‘n toasted way back
as the epsom portakabin tollets
shiattle spewed their gypsy loads qeasily on the hill
gathering up half as much muck
as Alex Bird’s 20 big ones
that rolled out
and went into intantaneous combustion
asTatts came into view
there were groans from the crowd
as the toilets reached capacity
and effluent spilled
as walter kicked on and out

As for Seabird
a flluidity of raw power
a majesty that knew no harness.
Given the same training conditions
it is a strange nightmare
a carpenter fog that dare
declare that winner
a misty mis-match of nature
frowned on by the gods
that distrubute such greatness
but all in all
just hold your breath
and climax
as the longshanks straight
bursts into view
bird brave, brave bird,
BIRD arcs his back
to defy the modern generation
a length and a half
erupts
and the gods cry

[gamble]

[Himself]

Himself,

I do not believe you understand the point I raised.

Mark

Well, of course I didn’t – I’m such an absolute thicko. Like most people on this forum, I am way out of the handicap ( intellectually ) as far as you are concerned.
No wonder Fists of Fury got fed up with such pompous nonsense.

I understand perfectly the points you made about time/course/training methods etc. It still does not alter my belief one little jot that Sea Bird was a superior racehorse to Dancing Brave – and racing, as we are so often reminded, is ALL about opinions.

When Peintre Celebre won the Arc on bowling green like conditions and smashed the Arc time record, Jim McGrath ( Timeform ) said that we should not read too much into this – intimating that it did not necessarily put the French colt in front of other Arc winners who posted slower times – and this from a man representing an organisation where time and form were regarded as mainstay factors.

By your reckoning, logic would dictate that Peintre Celebre must surely then be a better racehorse than Dancing Brave and every other Arc winner ?

For what it’s worth, I also happen to think that along with Sea Bird, horses such as Nijinsky, Mill Reef, and Ribot ( at their best ) would have beaten Dancing Brave –

although you may attempt, with added vigour – and in that inimitable condescending style – you will never, EVER be able to change that long held opinion – just as I am equally certain that I will never succeed in altering yours.

Happy days.

Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

[Drone]

Have these been mentioned? Lest we forget:

Chaser: Wayward Lad, Jodami, Suny Bay

Flat: Ardross, Miesque

Trainer: MW Dickinson

Other: Phil Bull, Dick Whitford, John Oaksey

ps I really do believe Seabird ‘on a line through’ ‘that reliable yardstick’ (name escapes me) who finished 10th in the Arc is justified a rating of only 144.5: 145? yer having a larf

favourite or best?

[Euro]

For what it’s worth, I also happen to think that along with Sea Bird, horses such as Nijinsky, Mill Reef, and Ribot ( at their best ) would have beaten Dancing Brave –

Of course you do, because like a lot of older racing enthusiasts nostalgia is the key element in how they`d rank racehorses. The re-incarnation of Sea Bird could race nowadays and of course it still wouldn`t beat Nijinsky.

[Gingertipster]

Himself,

I do not believe you understand the point I raised.

Mark

Well, of course I didn’t – I’m such an absolute thicko. Like most people on this forum, I am way out of the handicap ( intellectually ) as far as you are concerned.
No wonder Fists of Fury got fed up with such pompous nonsense.

I understand perfectly the points you made about time/course/training methods etc. It still does not alter my belief one little jot that Sea Bird was a superior racehorse to Dancing Brave – and racing, as we are so often reminded, is ALL about opinions.

When Peintre Celebre won the Arc on bowling green like conditions and smashed the Arc time record, Jim McGrath ( Timeform ) said that we should not read too much into this – intimating that it did not necessarily put the French colt in front of other Arc winners who posted slower times – and this from a man representing an organisation where time and form were regarded as mainstay factors.

By your reckoning, logic would dictate that Peintre Celebre must surely then be a better racehorse than Dancing Brave and every other Arc winner ?

For what it’s worth, I also happen to think that along with Sea Bird, horses such as Nijinsky, Mill Reef, and Ribot ( at their best ) would have beaten Dancing Brave –

although you may attempt, with added vigour – and in that inimitable condescending style – you will never, EVER be able to change that long held opinion – just as I am equally certain that I will never succeed in altering yours.

Happy days.

Himself,

I too believe Sea Bird should be rated above Dancing Brave. Because SB was better within his era than DB was in his. So the Timeform ratings I believe are (more or less) correct.

No I do not believe Peintre Celebre was better than Dancing Brave. because that Arc was run on lightning quick ground and there was speculation that the rail had been moved inwards. Not a true 1 1/2 miles.

Without wishing to appear condescending, I see you have not answered my question. Why, when there was less watering in the 60’s ("faster ground"); were horses unable to match the record times of the 80’s?
But if it pains you too much to answer, please forget about it.

Mark

Value Is Everything

[Himself]

Of course you do, because like a lot of older racing enthusiasts nostalgia is the key element in how they`d rank racehorses. The re-incarnation of Sea Bird could race nowadays and of course it still wouldn`t beat Nijinsky.

Remind me when Nijinsky ran.

My opinions are not clouded by nostalgia, trust me. I believe Istabraq would have dispatched Persian War and Monksfield as I am firmly of the opinion that Zarkava would have sent Pebbles or Petite Etoile packing – as indeed I am convinced Desert Orchid could not have lived with Denman or Kauto Star.

Gingertipster, the reason times are better these days is due to better ground conditions and generally faster run races – but if you scan times from the past – for example Derby and Arc times, you will find that there was very little variance between the winners. Ground, pace, tactics all play a part. To me, fastest time does not necessarily mean best horse. Shergar’s Derby time would indicate that he was an old plodder – though of course, we know different. Don’t we ?

Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

[cormack15]

I’ll wrap this up tomorrow with the voting lists so get those last minute nominations in.

I’d like to add the following

Jockeys – Fred Archer, Sir Gordon Richards
Trainers – Sir Noel Murless, Vincent O’Brien, Fred Darling
Others – Mirabel Topham

Flat Horses (probably all already in the lists) – Shergar, El Gran Senor, The Minstrel, Grundy, Dahlia, Pawneese, All Along
Jumps – Spanish Steps, Red Rum, Aldaniti, Golden Miller, Cottage Rake, Crisp, Tingle Creek, Birds Nest

[insomniac]

Jockey: Scobie Breasley

[Gerald]

I first noticed Juwwi when I was in the bookies on other business. Actually, I backed the second, Nobalino . This was on 9 April 1998. He majestically swept around the outside of the field round the final bend at Lingfield, with Royston Ffrench sitting motionless on him. I thought this was a horse to be followed.

He’d had previously won, and been retained, in a Seller, by Milton Bradley. He had been owned and bred by Hamdan Al Maktoum, and trained by Dick Hern to come a head second in the July Stakes. He had only had 3 runs as a 2yo and 2 as a 3yo. He was now 4, and running off a rating of 70.

The horse had lots of ability, it was just a question of how he felt.

RP Analysis:-
With the benefit of hindsight, JUWWI (runner-up in the 1996 July Stakes when trained by Dick Hern) had to be a good thing in a seller, but his new trainer Milton Bradley admitted: "You wouldn^t trust him an inch, sometimes he just digs his toes in when we try to work him at home, and he probably only ran on in the straight because the lorries are down this end."

Well, 25 races later, Juwwi wins his next race. He won it in characteristic manner, coming from the back, and having RUN THE PREVIOUS DAY:- ran Hamilton 6 May 99, won Carlisle 7 May 99.

That was the first time that Juwwi ran twice in very quick succession. The trick was tried again on 7 & 8 June without success.

The horse wins in the Autumn on the AW, and then on 29 Jan 00, 1 Feb & 5 Feb comes 5th, 3rd and 2nd. Well, this is a horse that you’d want to back at the start of the Flat season, wouldn’t you?
Runs 25 Mar 00 Kempton, wins 27 March 00 Windsor.
They tried the same trick on 15 & 17 April, but Juwwi messed it up by winning the first one.
There was no mistake next time, 17 & 18 May, both at York, wins 18 May 00.
1 & 2 July no success.
5 & 7 Aug no success.

I’m not sure running 16 May, then winning 19 May 01 counts as a Juwwi-style success – the 3 day break is a bit long.

The next time they tried the next day trick, I had never been so sure of anything in my life than that Juwwi would win. When he lined up in a 21 runner 6f H’cap at York on 14 July, having run late the previous evening at Chepstow, he was the biggest certainty to win a horse race ever, and he was available at an SP of 10/1, 16/1 in the morning.

It was mostly downhill for Juwwi from there. He won twice the following winter, then won on 3 May 03 at Donny. After that, his last 47 races were winless.

Juwwi ran 187 times, winning 15. He bowed out on 27 Jan 06, at the age of 12.

He seemed equally effective at 5 & 6f, but I always preferred him to have the prep race over 5, then the real thing over 6.

He did however seem to prefer flat tracks, winning at Windsor, York, Doncaster & Thirsk, though he also manged to win at Carlisle and Chepstow.

He always ran atrociously at Ascot, which is a pity because my favourite race is the Wokingham.

I think part of the explanation is that we all know what is going to happen in a 20 runner sprint h’cap on a flat track – the horses are going to go quick, in fact too quick. It is a case of the tortoise catching the hares.

However, on a stiff track, such as Ascot, the jockeys on the other mounts know they have to keep a bit in reserve for the finish, and thus they avoided falling into Juwwi’s pocket.

[vikingflagship]

10 hurdlers – istabrag, night nurse, monksfield, sea pigeon, baracouda, inglis drever, dawn run,
10 chasers – red rum, desert orchid, arkle, best mate, viking flagship, crisp, golden miller, earth summit,
15 flat horses – shergar, nijinski, lammtara, persian punch, yeates, sea bird, brigadier gerard, dubai millenium
5 jockeys – lester piggot, frankie dettori, willie carson,
5 trainers – martin pipe, paul nicholls, aidian o’brien (sorry can’t spell)
and 3 others (owners, commentators, administrators, lads, etc)

[Maxilon 5]

Nice post, Gerald. I remember Juwwi’s July Stakes run very well. He was 6/1 and beaten on the nod by Rich Ground, trained by James Bethell at a juicy 40/1. Hern really fancied the horse as did I. I also remember the York win, though I never backed him.

Himself, there is a range of books at the moments popular with the young (my son has one), where two icons are compared and the likely outcome discussed. Who would win between Bruce Lee and Mohammed Ali, for example, or between a Bear and a Shark.

While I’ve got Sea Bird II and the Brave to a length, levels each of two, I’d bet:

Desert Orchid 1/5
Kauto Star 4/1
Denman 20/1 at Kempers

or

Desert Orchid Ev
Denman 6/4
Kauto Star 8/1 at Chelters.

…and I’d have Pebbles a good 10lb higher rated than Zarkava, so if you fancy writing a chapter or two each, let us know.

[Himself]

Desert Orchid 1/5
Kauto Star 4/1
Denman 20/1 at Kempers

or

Desert Orchid Ev
Denman 6/4
Kauto Star 8/1 at Chelters.

…and I’d have Pebbles a good 10lb higher rated than Zarkava,

Then, I’d seriously review my figures if I was you.

I’d give you 20/1 Dessie round Chelters – against… well, almost any other Gold Cup winner !

Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

[Gerald]

Just a small distance. If Juwwi wins by a head, instead of losing the July Stakes by a head, he gets to keep his bollocks, and we have lots of little Juwwis infuriating trainers and punters in some corner of the globe.

[monksfield]

Persian War, Monksfield, Comedy of Errors, Night Nurse, Istabraq, Golden Cygnet and Harchibald for his notoriety.

Red Rum, Arkle, Flyingbolt, Desert Orchid, Kauto Star, Wayward Lad, L’Escargot, Crisp, Golden Miller, Badsworth Boy, Viking Flagship and Dawn Run.

Sir Ivor, Mill Reef, Ribot, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Lochsong, Pebbles, Zarkava, Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Triptych, The Minstrel.

L Piggott, AP McCoy, R Dunwoody, S Cauthen, WR Swinburn.

Vincent O’ Brien, M Pipe, M Stoute.

Sir Peter o’ Sullevan, Northern Dancer, Robert Sangster.

[Author]

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