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G. Moore runs The Shy Man tomorrow at Carlisle over 2m in anovice chase.
From its form it would appear to need a bare minimum of 2 1/2m ond more than likely 3m plus.
Its 2 wins being over 2 1/2 and 2m 6 1/2.
On its reappearance it ran over 2m at Hexham and only because it was so superior to every other runner in the field it came second.
Whilst appreciating the trainer and owner can run their horse wherever and whenever they want, is this not close to schooling in public, as I will eat my hat if it wins barring accidents to virtually every other runner in the field.
As long as the horse and connections are trying to win the race and doing everything they can in the race to do so there is surely no problem its up to the punter to recognise a horse not running under favourable conditions. The problem lies when horses are not ridden to win a race – that is out of order and cannot be tolerated.
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So Mark Prescott intentionally running 12-14 furlong horses over sprint distances in order to obtain ludicrously lenient handicap marks is acceptable, Ian, as long as they’re seen to be trying?
I appreciate that, in certain circumstances, identifying calculated attempts to deceive the handicapper is difficult and that no rules of racing are (technically) being broken, but how else can purposefully running a horse over a wildly unsuitable trip be perceived other than as cheating?
It’s not something I like to see to be honest, but given that those entrusted with governing the sport couldn’t find their own a*sehole with a map perhaps it’s best that such practices aren’t policed. Can you imagine how many steward-imposed bans the BHA would have to overturn then?
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While I’m not suggesting it is the only reason, many trainers run their novices over shorter distances to train them to run and jump at speed. There’s more to it than just fooling the handicapper too, as the majority of recent Gold Cup winners started their chasing careers over much shorter, many without taking the handicap route.
Similarly on the flat, the whole 2yo/3yo pattern is geared towards gradually stepping young horses up in distance as they gain in strength and experience.
Also, under both codes, older horses often lose some of their speed, (as do human athletes), and are stepped up in distance to compensate.
Doesn’t mean any of the above is always the case of course, but it does make it a fundament for the punter to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.no idea
Malko De Beaumont is a horse that needs at least 2 1/2 miles, preferably 3 miles, yet still managed to win a 2 mile handicap at Carlisle’s last meeting. Carlisle is the stiffest test in the North, a fair bit stiffer than Hexham, and horses who need 2 1/2 miles elsewhere can utilise their extra stamina to win over 2 miles there.
One thing I do when analysing a race at Carlisle is to make absolutely sure it has the stamina for the course and trip. I would imagine regulars at Towcester would tell you much the same thing about the Northamptonshire track.
In the case of The Shy Man I did comment at Hexham that he’d need further, and I do agree that he will likely need further even round here. However, having seen the race at Hexham live, the inference that this is ‘close to schooling in public’ is patently absurd. Every effort was made for the horse to go with them down the far side but he simply didn’t have the speed until hitting the hill. If anything it was the downhill section on the far side at Hexham which put paid to his chances. I’d expect to see The Shy Man a good deal closer on the long haul up to the finish today.
Rob
So Mark Prescott intentionally running 12-14 furlong horses over sprint distances in order to obtain ludicrously lenient handicap marks is acceptable, Ian, as long as they’re seen to be trying?
Yes
Equitrack, I’d like to hear why you think Prescott-esque tatics like those you describe can be branded cheating. Like you, I find something about them a bit disconcerting, but to claim they should be outlawed is clearly ill thought-out. Where would it all end?
The big stalling point for any argument regarding horses running ‘over the correct trip’ is deciding what is the correct trip. There are various maidens full of un-raced or lightly raced horse being run at the moment. Who is to say what are the ‘correct distances’ for any of the horses entered in these races?
You can’t go by breeding sicne it’s an inexact science, I’ve known horses sired by sprinters to win staying chases! Other than that, what other criteria do you use?
Rob
My Way De Solzen won the Stayers Hurdle, so he was obviously running at ‘the wrong trip’ in the Arkle.
And everybody ‘knew’ that Desert Orchid was just a two mile tearaway before his first try at the King George.
Ajdal ran in the Derby before scoring in the July Cup and the Nunthorpe.
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There is a marked difference between a horse being run over what is known to be the incorrect trip in order to obtain a lenient handicap mark, and a top class chaser proving himself to be supremely capable over a range of distances; the exploits of Desert Orchid and a Mark Prescott rogue are hardly comparable.
It is an impossible area to police, not least because maidens can be nothing more than vessels for experimentation, but as no obvious solution is forthcoming it’s simply overlooked as ‘shrewdness’ on the trainer’s part.
Clearly it is only me who finds such practices offensive to their sense of fair play (perhaps an outdated concept in today’s modern world, where money is the ultimate goal and the likes of Jade Goody and Kerry Katona are promoted to the mantle of celebrity).
While I’m not suggesting it is the only reason, many trainers run their novices over shorter distances to train them to run and jump at speed. There’s more to it than just fooling the handicapper too, as the majority of recent Gold Cup winners started their chasing careers over much shorter, many without taking the handicap route.
Similarly on the flat, the whole 2yo/3yo pattern is geared towards gradually stepping young horses up in distance as they gain in strength and experience.
Also, under both codes, older horses often lose some of their speed, (as do human athletes), and are stepped up in distance to compensate.
Doesn’t mean any of the above is always the case of course, but it does make it a fundament for the punter to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.Totally agree with all that Reet, well thought out.
Also,
Surely assessing how much a horse can improve stepped up or down in trip is part of the enjoyment of our sport. Every punter with some knowledge of breeding can make an educated assessment of its chance.Is running them on different ground than their perceived best cheating?
Its best form might be on flat tracks, so does that mean it should not run at Cheltenham?
Is running them with an apprentice cheating when its best form is with strong handling?
Is holding up a horse who is usually ridden prominently cheating?NO!
There might possibly be a case to suggest the handicapper should be able to look at its breeding and put it up a few pounds. If the difference is significant.
I see nothing wrong with what Sir Mark Prescott does, in fact I applaud his initiative.
As others have said, as long as the horse is trying to win the race there is no problem.Mark
Value Is EverythingClearly it is only me who finds such practices offensive to their sense of fair play (perhaps an outdated concept in today’s modern world, where money is the ultimate goal and the likes of Jade Goody and Kerry Katona are promoted to the mantle of celebrity).
Don’t go clambering for the moral high ground just because you’ve been picked up on a rash statement. There is nothing dishonest about what Prescott does, he is obtaining what he feels is the best return his owners will get on a horse by using means that are within the rules and don’t even necessarily involve a bet. A means which is impossible to police but normally so easy to spot. Racing has far bigger antagonists to your "sense of fair play" than a man who exposes flaws in handicap structures rather than in rules.
Any horse is entitled to run at any trip, that isn’t cheating. If a punter backs a horse over 5f that has a 10f pedigree that is the punters choice.
The name of the game is racing, every horse in every race should be running on merit to do its best to win that race. If every horse is trying there isn’t a problem. If conditions don’t suit a horse it is up to the punter to assess and realise this and bet accordingly. Trainers are entitled to place their horses in any race for which they are qualified as long as that horse is doing his / her best to win that race or to be a bit more technical “to obtain its best possible placing”.
Its rides like McCoy’s on Straw Bear that I have a problem with when that horse (a horse that responds to pressure the same way the majority do) was given nothing more than a hands and heels ride between the second last and the last and the last to the post and was beaten 3/4 length. That horse IMO was not ridden strongly enough and may have won that race under a “normal” ride.
Reflecting on the thread title, I thought this was going to be about Ravens Pass running in the Classic.
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If you think the horse is running over the wrong trip…..dont back it.
lay it
Equitrack
Is it only ‘cheating’ when Prescott does it?
The Cesarewitch favourite Askar Tau, trained by the sainted Tregoning, started in handicaps over 1M 6F on a mark of 57 after three maidens over 1M, in which he was beaten at least 15L every time.
Or check out the career of Boz trained by Cumani, gone from an initial 50 to 91 in handicaps after three hefty defeats at around 1M.
If I have a 2-y-old bred to stay 2M, can you tell me where I can find a 12F maiden for him this month – or are you saying that if the pedigree suggests the horse will be better over long distances, I’m forbidden to run it at two?
There is a simple solution open to the authorities, one I recommended here as part of a flat racing manifesto. Any horse, whoever trains it, that is entered for a handicap, at any distance, after three runs in a maiden should be allocated a mark of no less than 70.
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