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As a punter I don’t like losing because of lack of effort or because the jockey cannot take action when necessary.
I know it’s only a factor of added uncertainty, but how annoying.
I ‘m prepared to face up to the possibility of losing because my horse underperforms, but I don’t like mishaps on the way.I don’t believe the horses suffer.
Some people have watched too many pirate movies and they think it is like the sailors being beaten by the pirates. It is n’t.At the same time we keep hearing horror stories about what happens to race horses after retirement. This is what the animal lovers ought to talk about.
I know two people in charge of post retirement care groups (two separate such groups) and they told me horror stories, plus what I read in the press from time to time.If you bothered to read my posts Pinza instead of isolating comments here and there out of context you’d see that I recognise the whip may have a place for safety reasons. But I think it is unnecessary that we use it to drive horses harder.
You’re saying he’s either being dishonest, or stupid, or possibly both – neither of which adverbs fit with "integrity" for one moment.
What a load of nonsense. Not sure if you’re trying to wind me up! I clearly haven’t said either of those things and I take umbrage at your putting words into my mouth.
Because I disagree with MJ’s arguments doesn’t mean I don’t think he has integrity. He’s voicing points that he believes are valid, I am sure, but I disagree with him and don’t think they are. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he has integrity. I may think someone is wrong and that their arguments are illogical without it meaning I’m questioning their integrity. Quite the opposite, I believe he has strong integrity and always fights his corner well. I’m just not in his corner on this one.
I apologise for trying to put words in your mouth. But I’m baffled now. If you don’t judge the whip "cruel", and don’t find it "distasteful", then for the life of me I cannot understand why you find it "unnecessary"
Go back and read my posts and you’ll read why I deem it unecessary, but not cruel or distasteful per se, although I do think the use of the whip can be extremely distasteful on occasion.
What’s your clear logic Pinza, in a consise two sentence argument, for retaining the whip?
- Total Posts 17716
What’s your clear logic Pinza, in a consise two sentence argument, for retaining the whip?
It is a prime jockey skill, utile for safety, encouragement and the welfare of the horse, as well as adding immeasurably to the aesthetic appeal and visceral excitement of the Sport.
There it is in one, Corm.
Please – I am not trying to wind you (or anyone else) up. Just trying to find out where (if anywhere) the "logic" of your feelings lie.
Hitting animals with sticks in the name of sport is not acceptable in 2011 and cannot be justified by any amount of verbosity………….EVERYONE should be welcoming this trial………….carry whips for safety but don’t use them to make horses go faster.
It is a prime jockey skill, utile for safety, encouragement and the welfare of the horse, as well as adding immeasurably to the aesthetic appeal and visceral excitement of the Sport
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Very well put Pinza.
I would agree that the use of the whip on safety/welfare grounds is acceptable.
I’d argue we don’t need it for encouragement, horses go plenty well enough with encouragement from hands/heels.
I’d also argue that rather than add anything at all (never mind immeasurably) to the aesthetic appeal of racing it actually detracts from it, on occasions it transcends uncomfortable viewing and is downright ugly.
In terms of excitement, I don’t think racing need be any less exciting. Finishes would be just as close and exciting, the colour and speed would remain. The puzzle to be solved about who would win would be just the same. The fact that the horses may go 0.1 seconds slower (or whaetever) wouldn’t make an iota of a difference.
The only bit of the argument for retaining the whip (other than for safety) that I find in the least persuasive is Sean Boyce’s points about the detrimental effect on British racing’s international standing and reputation. But I’m not sure the Americans give the slightest jot what we do over here in any case.
Corm , I am starting to side with the argument of having whips for safety and correction , however one drawback , the winner of the 2nd race at Towcester today , would not have won only for a couple of sharp reminders after the last , as a punter if the whip is disallowed I know I have been hard done by in this actual race
Still I believe it will take a court case to have it banned , something akin to this years National , could well be challenged in court , and case won , which would have to force the Bha to change
For me its a question of when , not if , and then we will have a whole new ball game
In the meantime I believe a little more tinkering will take place
Ricky
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Have you seen Arabian, from France TV channel, Turkish TV channel ?
Front runner is slowed down to crawl, second runner can’t get up because he crawls just as bad.
Without whip this is the sort of racing we ‘ll be seeing.I don’t know what will happen bettingwise.
It’s a situation is like steward enquiries that change the result. Once in my favour, the other time against me.But it’s going to be detrimental to racing as a spectacle.
Where is the actual proof from a vet’s point of view that the horse actually suffers ?
I think this whip ban is great. No-one has the whip so no-one is advantaged or disadvantaged. Anyone who has a horse that is a tricky ride can just enter races elsewhere. Also, no-one gets an unfair advantage by flagrantly breaking the whip rules to ensure the prize money, whilst everyone else adheres to them and gets beat for it.
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There is no horse that says "I ‘m a tricky ride". They change habits many times.
The ones who qualify to talk are the vets and the former jockeys and trainers who will speak with abjectivity. The rest do not qualify.
As this is an international issue, or on its way to become one, the racing public everywhere are right in viewing with suspicion anything coming out of the mouth of establishmentarian left wing yuppies.- Total Posts 17716
I think if the whip ban is brought in across the sport then it’s going to only favour schooling sessions on track and increase the number of bent rides day in day out.
How fantastic is that, you’ve got a horse that’s not off and you’re not allowed to use the whip – we’ve got it easy lads! Hands n heels all the way, this is easy money.
Racing is just going to be a minefield of non trier, I wish the BHA every success on trying to distinguish those in the field that are trying from those that aren’t – the whip was the only thing that could clearly separate the two cases.
How many jockeys are really going to use this to show their “skill”, give me a break.
Another fine advancement for the sport.
I find this debate very interesting – We do Endurance riding here in France and whips are banned for 90, 130 and 160km races at national and international level, so why not race your horses over a couple of miles without whips.
Frencharabes,
Thank you for that information
Do you mean whips are banned completely, or are riders allowed to carry them as a safety precaution?
Drone
Whips are banned completely we do not carry anything from start to finish. And some of the sprint finishes at the higher distances are astounding.
I find this debate very interesting – We do Endurance riding here in France and whips are banned for 90, 130 and 160km races at national and international level, so why not race your horses over a couple of miles without whips.
I’m not surprised whips are banned over them distances, I reckon the jockeys as well as the horses would be shagged out whipping for 160 km. Probably end up with an impression of Richard Pitman on the run in on Crisp in the National.
Exactly Eddie,
And yes whilst leg is used, over those distances it can only be used so much.
For those who think Endurance is just a trot around the countryside google Endurance équestre – CEI*** Rambouillet 2008 and watch the 1st youtube clip.
Granted not nearly as fast as racing but in this particular race the winning speed was 18.8km/h over the 160km and the last loop of 20km the winning speed was 24km/h.
Drone – and Stylvi –
the question you asked Drone was specifically about the difference between the kind of crops carried by recreational riders and the race whips carried by jockeys. I described what I consider the key differences. You can easily verify that by walking into any tack shop and seeing what type of sticks are sold. Or ask anyone else who’s ridden, or note the RSPCA guy’s comments about how different a contemporary racing whip is to anything else. I wasn’t for a moment Stylvi claiming to be a jockey! I’ve ridden using various (non pro) whips in my life and all of them would be harsher implements than a modern racing whip and most would be capable of marking a horse if used in the way that sticks are in a racing context.
In some ways the relative softness of the modern racing whipmay
have exacerbated the issue of visual impact as you sometimes see jockeys making very big swings in order to generate a meaningful contact. It’s a difficult trade off to get right. Personally I like the new whip as it goes so far towards preventing injury and – if that message was properly communicated – could take some of the sting (sorry!) out of this debate.
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