Towcester Plan Whip Ban

[Anonymous]

Monty Robert’s empathy with horses is astounding, and I think that has spilt over here into thinking about it from the horse’s point of view, rather than the point of view of jockeys, trainers, owners and punters.

His comparison with using the whip on children or lashing prisoners is sentimental, shallow and – forgive me – slightly offensive.

His cited racing nations in his progressive anti-whip campaign are Sweden and Germany (where they use(d) softer whips in 2yo races, an interesting fact I was glad to learn about) whilst he admits that USA is happy with the rules as they are. He does not even mention France or Ireland. Presumably not great enough racing nations, compared to Germany or Sweden!

Significantly, he wrote the book from which the extract is taken ten years ago, and published it in 2002. Not only UK whip rules, but science and understanding have moved on, beyond his overtly Disneyfied view of the whip.

I’d be keen to know how far his own thoughts have developed nowadays.

[EmmyK]

I have absolutely no respect for monty roberts, but that’s another story for another day.

Rigth technical rubbish as promised

1) keeping horses strait.
Basically horses don’t naturally go in perfectly strait lines, it’s a more obvious problem with dressage and showjumpers, but you’ll tend to see whips carried on the sides horses drift towards as it acts as a ‘block’ to that side of the horse. Yanking a horses head to one side doesn’t work, it pulls their neck round, but pushes their shoulder out the other way and makes it a lot easier for that horse to drift the opposite way to the way it’s heads been yanked round. Normally you can keep a horse strait with seat and legs, but you have neither of them when riding racing style. I’m crap at explaining this haha.

2) jumps
It’s all a matter of seeing strides, so basically x distance out you think i’m going to check this horse and get 4 strides in or i’m going to push this horse and get 3 strides in before the jump. You need to be able to push the horse forwards without putting yourself out of balance. There is also the problem of backing off, no worse feeling than coming into a fence like that, with a horse acting like he doesn’t fancy the look of it much, racehorses rarely stop but you’ll get some horrible, slow, catleap over it. You need something there, since you can’t really kickm due to stirrup length or lack thereof.
To whoever said something about riding so short, i probably a case of keeping weight off the horses back and allows them to move/jump more freely. Also I don’t know if anyone’s ever ridden in a racing saddle, but it is like riding bareback, with a pair of stirrups stapled to the horse. To ride longer you’d need a proper saddle, which tend to have wood in them and weigh a hell of a lot more, they also would break when horses fell, and would be miles worse for horses to fall on. Unlike racing saddles they are not one size fits all, and one even slightly badly fitting can do so so so so much damage to a horses back and muscle build up. As a really boring aside to this thoroughbreds are not renouwned for having the most lovely of paces to have to sit to, very long and gangly, so it’s far easier to just perch yerself there and let the horse put it’s feet where it wants to.

that probably didn’t help haha.

[cormack15]

I think he’d have welcomed the changes made to the whip here Pinza.

I thought the Barbaro fact was interesting. Fastest last quarter since Secretariat with no whip.

Do we really need the whip to make them go faster?

(I appreciate there are a large number of possible reasosn for that fnal quarter time btw other than that the whip wasn’t used)

But I like and support Roberts’ underlying premise, that there is a way we can race horses which is more humane. Not that I think it is ‘cruel’, just that as civilised and reasoning animals we have a duty of care and protection to the animals who serve us which I can’t reconcile against use of the whip to drive tired horses harder when you have an option to race without it (the whip).

Damn, I’d said i was going to shut up on this issue now.

*sits on hands, unplugs laptop, makes tea, glances back towards keyboard*

[cormack15]

Excellent post EmmyK

[Drone]

Yes, thanks EmmyK

Frencharabes,

Are the endurance horses Thoroughbreds?

If not, they’re presumably Arabians, Warmbloods or Coldblood ‘draft’ types

Would I be correct in saying these breeds are calmer, less energetic and more tractable than your typical thoroughbred ‘nervous bundle of energy’?

Hence the rider can easily control them with his/her body strength without needing a whip/crop to keep them on the straight and narrow

Endurance riding through the countryside must present the horse with any number of distractions and tasks, so I for one was surprised to learn you don’t carry whips at all

[frencharabes]

Drone

In the main, here in France they are Arabs or more and more so Anglo-Arabs. Arabs are fairly tractable the Anglo-Arabs less so but either way a 130 or 160km fit horse is very fit and very energetic.

There are a couple of things we have in our favour over jockeys one is that our legs are closer to our horses, in that we ride long so we are able to guide with our legs and bodies.

The other is that in the main we know our horses and we know them well, we train them, so spend a lot of time with them thus building up a relationship which is very special, it has to be if you are going to ask your horse to race over those distances.

[eddie case]

Did anyone see the clown from Towcester on Sky Sports yesterday? Kevin Ackerman was his name, apparently he’s the general manager of the track. There was definitely something dodgy about him, he said it’s cruel to hit a horse behind the saddle with a whip. I’m puzzled why he should be deciding anything about our sport and why the BHA haven’t already told him where to go, sounded as if he knew sweet fa about racing.

I’d be seriously concerned if I was on the same side of the fence on any issue as this geezer Ackerman & McCririck.

[BlackGold]

Not necessarily on the saddles, EmmyK. If you watch the older films, jump jockeys rode longer then and the saddles look much the same. Even today, you’ll see some amateurs riding longer. I’m not saying they need to be as long as eventers, but a bit more leg length might help in general. But then we probably wouldn’t get some of the more spectacular recoveries we’ve seen over the years either as they wouldn’t happen in the first place.

[Drone]

The other is that in the main we know our horses and we know them well, we train them, so spend a lot of time with them thus building up a relationship which is very special, it has to be if you are going to ask your horse to race over those distances.

Another pertinent point: the horse-rider relationship and the comfort with and trust of one for the other: and lack thereof in thoroughbred racing

In TB racing we’ve all known horses who ‘go well’ for a particular jockey or for a particular type of jockey but in the main it’s unlikely a particular horse will become used to or be able to build a relationship with a particular jockey – in the way a dog for example bonds with its master or mistress – so large is the population of horses relative to population of jockeys

So perhaps the majority of racehorses actually mildy resent being ridden by ‘strangers’ when at the races with the result they make it difficult for that stranger to exert his/her will on it: ergo the whip is a necessary extra tool needed by these unwanted, disliked strangers in order to dominate the narked recalcitrant unwilling horse beneath

I dunno, confusion reigns in Drone’s mind

Familiar rider, long stirrup – whip not required
Unfamiliar jockey, short stirrup – whip required

seems about it

Thanks Frencharabes, appreciated

Roll on Towcester, please

[Anonymous]

I have one such in my card right now.
Horse friendly jockey returns from absence and taking over.
If he wins my pick-6 is a virtual certainty, I imagine.
We shall see.

But how could they have used the jockey last time out, if he was under suspension ?

I watched a couple of videos of flat races, paying close attention to the use of the whip.
From what I saw there are the following situations:

1)

Early reminders

– For horses that break slow.
2)

Bends

– This is where some horses are in danger of bolting up towards the outer perimeter of the pitch.
3)

Run in

– To accelarate horse.
4)

Running sideways in the straight & closing stages

– In those situations the jockey knows a stewards enquiry is looming large on his head and he is trying to stir the horse clear of trouble.
5)

Use of the whip to find racing room

– A very usual occurence. The jockey changes lane sacrificing a couple of lengths to find racing room. Sometimes it pays off.
6)

Use of the whip in the closing stages

– To accelerate. They hit the backside of the horse when doing that and this is where it tends to be somewhat painful.

Now how exactly will the stewards distinguish between cases (1)-(2)-(3)-(4)-(5)-(6) above without creating controversy ?
And will the result first past the post stand or will it be changed everytime one such enquiry is held ?

We need an expert jockey to answer the above questions and others.

[moehat]

May be wrong but would imagine a lot of horses would behave better with someone they don’t know, at least until they’ve physched them out.

[BlackGold]

One thing you can say for sure Moehat, is that horses are a law unto themselves. Whether you’re up for the first time or a regular rider, if a horse decides it doesn’t want to know about a race it can be very difficult to persuade them otherwise. No, I don’t want to go down to the start, no I’m not leaving the start, no I’m not going to go around that bend or over that fence. Even horses that haven’t given any problems before can sometimes take it into their heads to say no, not today. And that will bring another question to the whip use debate – how much persuasion is too much before a race even starts?

It’s a difficult area all round, but let Towcester go ahead and try it and see what the results are. It might lead to a new era in racing or it might prove that changes are needed, but a total whip ban is detrimental to the sport.

[del_boy]

stupid idea in my opinion.

the whip is part of horse racing itself, and if took away it wont be the same.

i guess its like saying for example, take the studs out of footballers boots, as they risk injury if clashed with a players legs, yet the purpose of them is to controll the footballers grip and posture.

like the whip is used to control the horse in a semse, yes it is used to push the horse, but it is also used to control the horse from drifting etc.

is there sufficient medical evidence to suggest the whip causes damage to horses?

i hope the ban gets overruled.

[Author]

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