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Treaty of Paris is a daft price for this. Only Group winner in the field, and has The Grey Gatsby held. I think the SP’s will look like a real head scratcher at the end of this race.
Treaty of Paris is a daft price for this. Only Group winner in the field, and has The Grey Gatsby held. I think the SP’s will look like a real head scratcher at the end of this race.
Then again…..TGG backed off the boards, this horse must work well at home or summat.
The Grey Gatsby was either still green or temperamental. With so much inexperience it’s very probable the former. I’d be surprised if the winner beats the second or third Il Papparazzi again; especially given the pace of yesterday’s race favouring the front runner/horse with experience. Placed horses could prove Group 3 or 2 winning Class, have my doubts about Group 1.
Still not fully convinced of The Grey Gatsby’s temperament, edgy in prelims. May be making the running didn’t suit, but had to do so otherwise it would’ve been slowly run (as last time). Although the probable reason for his defeat is "not good enough".
Value Is EverythingI suspect Ginger is right. If you can’t win when so much money is down (I backed him last night at 7/2) then he’s probably not worth trusting again. Lee gave him every chance this time from the outset.
Doubtless he will win, but I think I’ll leave him alone and, perhaps, retire once more from Flat race betting! I considered Hot Snap a good thing today, having had all sorts of problems at Goodwood, I thought she was the best horse that day by far. She seems to take far too long to reach top speed. (I might give her one more chance at 12f)
I don’t think there was an over abundance of money for him, just the scratchings dictated the shortening price. You won’t see the best of him for another prep or two, he is a big raw boned horse who I think will win a decent race within his next couple of preps. A lot of horses get toey in the prelims and race well, don’t think there is much wrong with his temperament, he is still just green. Apart from that the winner may just happen to be very good.
I suspect Ginger is right. If you can’t win when so much money is down (I backed him last night at 7/2) then he’s probably not worth trusting again. Lee gave him every chance this time from the outset.
Doubtless he will win, but I think I’ll leave him alone and, perhaps, retire once more from Flat race betting! I considered Hot Snap a good thing today, having had all sorts of problems at Goodwood, I thought she was the best horse that day by far. She seems to take far too long to reach top speed. (I might give her one more chance at 12f)
Massive difference in RPR’s between TGG and the winner, though. I realise horses can progress but i couldn’t understand why they were joint favourites.
TGG looks tricky. Held up when he won, has been up with the pace the last two races over a furlong extra and not lasted home. Wants dropping back to 6.
Winners have come out of his debut win but they’ve won similar contests at generally smaller tracks.Toormore, who beat Outstrip last time at Goodwood, runs at the Curragh today.
A lot of horses get toey in the prelims and race well, don’t think there is much wrong with his temperament, he is still just green.
I would probably tend to agree with you there – I think he is still a little green.
My paddock comment was
"Cable Bay and The Grey Gatsby are both a little bit on their toes, not enough to be too concerned about."
TGG looks tricky. Held up when he won, has been up with the pace the last two races over a furlong extra and not lasted home. Wants dropping back to 6.
It did cross my mind he should have probably been held up yesterday but in a four runner race it’s difficult to get too dogmatic about tactics.
The winner was put to sleep by Barzalona and did show a good turn of foot to win the contest fair and square.
TGG certainly seems unusually ‘thick’ and well built for his age (on TV at least. Paul will be better able to comment on make and shape)
There looks to be a lot of weight to push along. In my early days racing, I remember they used to say that was what you wanted in a sprinter, all compact muscle and power (though perhaps not at that age) Maybe a drop back to 6, as suggested, might work.
I don’t know if he has an awkward looking action – it seems that way to me, again from TV only and perhaps impressions are influenced by his colouring.
steeplechasing; I just came onto this thread to say the very same thing…I couldn’t believe how big the horse was compared to the others but, as you say, difficult to judge when watching on the telly.
A lot of horses get toey in the prelims and race well, don’t think there is much wrong with his temperament, he is still just green.
I would probably tend to agree with you there – I think he is still a little green.
My paddock comment was
"Cable Bay and The Grey Gatsby are both a little bit on their toes, not enough to be too concerned about."
TGG looks tricky. Held up when he won, has been up with the pace the last two races over a furlong extra and not lasted home. Wants dropping back to 6.
It did cross my mind he should have probably been held up yesterday but in a four runner race it’s difficult to get too dogmatic about tactics.
The winner was put to sleep by Barzalona and did show a good turn of foot to win the contest fair and square.
The Grey Gatsby is certainly a good looking colt, has size to train on well at three.
May be I am being a little too critical of his temperament at this early stage, but did you see TGG almost whip around Paul and carrying head a bit high at that point?
Also
In the Acomb race The Grey Gatsby got quite badly outpaced in a slowly run race, where the winner Treaty Of Paris got a soft lead and made all. Generally thought it did not suit TGG and had it been truly run TGG would probably have won..
Connections must have been worried the same could happen at Donny. In the Champagne (over the same distance) TGG was up against the same TOP. Cable Bay had been second over Goodwood’s fast 6f and was stepped up to 7f. So highly unlikely to go on and make a good pace. And Outstrip, who’d been held up and showed a terrific turn of foot to go clear in Goodwood’s Vintage Stakes (7f) before outstayed close home…
So had TGG been held up the race (with a strong probability) would’ve been slowly run. Of all the 4 runners it would’ve been most against TGG. Therefore, in my opinion it was a good ride by Graham Lee (considering all the above).
Unless it can be fully put down to greeness (doubt it myself) However, far from stepping back in trip. I’d be looking at trying to find a 7f race likely to be truly run, where holding the horse up won’t be a disadvantage (stamina test at trip). Or even a step up in distance. In the closing stages it looked as if sprinter Cable Bay was going to take second, but TGG fought back, suggesting he outstayed the third. Sire and dam’s sire both milers.
Value Is EverythingOutstrip would have won however they ran TGG yesterday. Just a better horse at this time.
Toomore franking the form very well in Ireland this afternoon
Totally concur that this horse needs a trip. As another poster pointed out, he stayed on to hold the 3rd horse.
He really is going to abe a very useful tool over middle distances.
I reckon there is at least group 2/3’s to be won with him and he may end up winning the St Leger.
Lovely stamp of a beast and next year he’s one to back when going 10 furlongs plus.
Zip
Totally concur that this horse needs a trip. As another poster pointed out, he stayed on to hold the 3rd horse.
He really is going to abe a very useful tool over middle distances.
I reckon there is at least group 2/3’s to be won with him and he may end up winning the St Leger.
Lovely stamp of a beast and next year he’s one to back when going 10 furlongs plus.
Zip
By a miler, out of a sprinter who’s by another miler Zip. TGG will (imo) do better at a mile, might and only might (allowing for temperament) get 10f next year. But I’ll give up racing if he proves a "Leger" horse Zip.
Value Is EverythingBy a miler, out of a sprinter who’s by another miler Zip. TGG will (imo) do better at a mile, might and only might (allowing for temperament) get 10f next year. But I’ll give up racing if he proves a "Leger" horse Zip.
How very unlike you: risking a huge sum (giving up your association with horse racing) on a slightly dodgy proposition.
The Grey Gatsby by Mastercraftsman out of Marie Vison By Entrepreneur
Mastercraftsman has his first two year olds this year, so it is too early to judge how much speed or stamina he will impart to his offspring. But he is a Danzig line stallion. The good ones in that line have been spinter/milers on the race track but have a surprisng ability to throw foals with much greater stamina than they had. Mastercraftsman’s grandsire, Danehill, produced Westerner, Dylan Thomas, Duke of Marmalade, North Light, Desert King, Tiger Hill, Peeping Fawn. His sire, Danehill Dancer produced Planteur, Moatize, Dancing Rain, Ice Queen, Wajir. All these were Group 1 winners over 12 furlongs or more. That’s without counting the loads of other horses who won at secondary Group and Listed level and handicaps. Although Mastercraftsman ran most of his races over a mile, he did finish a one length second to Sea The Stars in the 10 furlong Juddmonte International and finished a five length third to the same horse in the 10 furlong Irish Champion Stakes. With Danehill and Danehill Dancer both showing their best form at 6 furlongs I would not be at all surprised to see Mastercraftsman siring horses capable of Group level form over 12 furlongs or more.
Marie Vison ran once at 6f and twice at 8f as as a two year old for Jim Bolger. She was sent to David Smaga in France as a three year old when her best run was second in a Listed race over 8 furlongs on heavy ground at Saint Cloud. Her other races varied in distance from 7 to 10 furlongs.
I am not sure if it is fair to label Entrepreneur as just a miler. He won the 2000 Guineas but then injured himself when finishing fourth in the Derby. He had one other woeful race three months later that just demonstrated that his injury was too much for him to be an effective race horse. His full sister Dance A Dream was a top class stayer, finishing second to Moonshell in The Oaks, after having won the Cheshire Oaks. His full brother Sadler’s Image won three races over 12 furlongs, two of them at Listed level.
Marie Vison’s dam was by Kingmambo who is an influence for stamina despite never having been tried at further than a mile. Of his best offspring, more have been Group 1 winners over 12 furlongs than at shorter distances. El Condor Pasa, Alkaased, Lemon Drop Kid, Rule Of Law, Encke, Light Shift and others, all won Group 1 races at 12 furlongs or more.
There may just be enough stamina clues to get you worried. On the other hand, there is a fair chance that TGG’s lack of ability might save the day.
Another little aside on race-track performance versus stallion- imparted stamina; The St Leger winner Sixties Icon’s ten best offspring so far have accumulated 19 wins, with 15 of them being at 7 furlongs or less. And he is really bred to be a stayer being by a Derby winner out of an Oaks winner (Galileo/Love Divine). It’s a risky business judging bloodstock stamina too early. I really hope we don’t have to wave goodbye to you next September. You could try having a saver on the proposition of “I’ll stay with racing if Toormore wins a Group 1 as a three year old”!
I got a good telling off, there!
Luckily for me, Marginal Value gave a comprehensive comeback.
OK – I may look as daft as a brush come the St Leger, but sometimes you have to say it as you see it. I just believe this horse will improve loads for a stamina test. He’s hardly stopping over 7 furlongs.
I’ll stock up on double cream ready for my humble pie savaging next year.
Zip
As the horses crossed the line in the champagne i was firmly in the camp of "not touching that again with a shitty stick" (pocket talking obviously) Having looked back at the race again though i think tgg has a lot to offer next year. I’m doubtful he’ll make a genuine group horse but i think large field handicaps could be his forte. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s gelded at some point either, probably after they’ve come to terms with him not being classic material.
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