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Is this simply the changing tide with how trainers view a race such as the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes?
I know that this is the second year in a row that the race has attracted no horses from any of the Derbies, and certainly no 3YOs either. They were the lifeblood of the King George, as this was the race where they took their first step into challenging their senior opponents.
Is the scheduling of the King George come at an unsatisfying time nowadays? Do the 3YOs need a short let-up before the Ebor meeting leading into the Irish Champion, Arc trials, the Arc, Breeders Cup and then Asia, with the road ceasing at Nad Al Sheba?
Note: This is not a thread to discuss this year’s race itself. We know where that one is …
"The signs are…that this race is losing its appeal. …Created in 1951 the race fitted the bill as a rich event that would attact the best European 3 and 4yos over the …classic trip. Since then time has been catching up on the race, and the present proximity of other valuable middle-distance events in England, Ireland and France…has affected the status of the King George. As well as showing a fall in quantity, the race is declining in quality".
A quote from Timeform. Any guesses to the year?
Do the 3YOs need a short let-up before the Ebor meeting leading into the Irish Champion, Arc trials, the Arc, Breeders Cup and then Asia, with the road ceasing at Nad Al Sheba?
I don’t think the race is losing its perceived ‘lustre’ as much as it’s just awkwardly-situated in the season. The only 3YOs who could run in it, ran in the Irish Derby and Grand Prix de Paris; I suppose they can’t run in both, and their trainers are preferring to stick to their own age-group in those races, and then go for the Arc, etc, later.
Also the importance of the Arc has increased the importance of the Grand Prix de Paris as a trial so that’s another factor in its favour.
I think the age-allowance for 3YOs in The King George is generous though.
"The signs are…that this race is losing its appeal. …Created in 1951 the race fitted the bill as a rich event that would attact the best European 3 and 4yos over the …classic trip. Since then time has been catching up on the race, and the present proximity of other valuable middle-distance events in England, Ireland and France…has affected the status of the King George. As well as showing a fall in quantity, the race is declining in quality".
A quote from Timeform. Any guesses to the year?
1952?
For me racing has only got 1 king george race and that is run at kempton park every boxing day.
lol @ md – not many 3yos in that race either!
DB, not far wrong! 1966, when the race was won by the great Aunt Edith. I could probably find other examples from other eras too. It does go in circles, to some extent, as races fall in and out of fashion with certain groups.
The quality of winners since the turn of the century hasn’t been below average, in general, and older horses have always been strongly represented. The King George was listed as on the agenda for New Approach before his injury, and O’Brien’s domination of Gr.1s this year has meant the other obvious 3yo candidates would mostly have been his anyway, so I don’t believe that the race is terminally out of favour with 3yos.
The English horses that went to the Grand Prix De Paris were not top class, would not be good enough in the King George. Though some years it will take potentially top class runners away.
Racing is international these days and there are too many valuable alternatives. Because of a foreseen bias by breeders against what they see as stayers (those who "need" 1m4f+) owners are keener to win at 1m2f than the classic distance. A Derby winner who has not won a group 1 at the shorter distance may now want to go for the shorter trip.
Do think the three year old drought is over played. Had New Approach been fit he would’ve run. Tartan Bearer is also injured and the only other one who may be good enough is Frozen Fire, a stablemate of the favourite. The French rarely come over.
When three year olds were doing well, high stud fees and low prize money meant fewer good older horses stayed in training. It just means there are more good older horses around nowadays.
Autorised was good enough to beat Dylan Thomas in the International, so I see no reason to change the weight for age scale.
Mark
Value Is EverythingMay I offer another angle?
I don’t think the strange ground at the new Ascot is helping, but I wonder whether the changing nature of training and trainers in the UK is the problem rather than the race itself.
The vast majority of the runners (all ages), since 1988 have come from Godolphin (21 runners since 1995), and Sir Michael Stoute (14). Godolphin have a stableful of poor horses and Sir Michael is doubly represented, though not with his 3-y-o’s. No great problem here.
It’s the old guard which is the issue, it seems. Once mighty stables such as John Dunlop (9 runners since 1988) Wr Hern/MP Tregoning (6) Geoff Wragg (5) BW Hills (3) CE Brittain (9). HRA Cecil (9) and P Cole (4) all contest the race whenever possible and have contested the race with their top middle distance thoroughbreds injury permitting.
But these traditional British stables steeped in King George history are not having the success they once did.
It is tempting to consider them victims of fashion or the Coolmore/Godolphin hegemony, but I prefer to think they it’s a cycle: these guys don’t become bad trainers overnight.
Nonetheless, I cannot think of one colt (or filly) from these yards who would stand a chance in this race this year. Hence, they cannot enter – to the detriment of the race.
At one time, stables such as Henry Cecil’s would have multiple options and the papers would be full of speculation.
Those days could return. If, in 2009, they each discover a decent staying animal, I am certain they would chose the King George route rather than the currently trendy Grand Prix de Paris/Irish Champion route. Like the Scorpion travelling on the back of the turtle in the moral tale, the King George is what these guys do.
Of newer forces in British training, Mark Johnston has had three recent runners and Mick Channon has had one (which runs again tomorrow). Both are traditionalist trainers who value the King George. The latter runs Youmzain tomorrow, but the former has been in shocking form and has not had a top rated contender in his yard since Boscobel in the 2007 Irish Derby
Otherwise, it’s a race they would target with anything they have rated in the early hundreds.
Of the owners, the only oligopolistic owner who could do, but who never really considers the race is the Aga Khan – who seems to have a problem with racing in this country in general. I can never make up my mind whether it is the Jockey Club’s forensic procedures or Peter Thomas he objects to; (either way, it’s our loss, let’s face it).
The Japanese have raced in the King George, as have the Americans: the French always come. We’ve had German horses too – the Sovereign series is going to help here big-time in the future.
Reports of the demise of the King George, Mr Deering, are greatly exaggerated.
yes the winners of the recent king george,s are high class horses but you only have to look at the depth in quality of the runnings in the 80s and 90s to see that it is now become just another group one race.
for me the race was at its best when the derby winner ran in it and its now 7 years since thats happened,maybe a 1million bonus could be put up to any horse that does the derby/king george double?
its a sad sight when owners stick their nose up at a 850,000 race,im sure thats why ascot still cant find a sponsor.
as the decline as happened during the coolmore domination of flat racing, perhaps they are to blame?
i remember in 1990 sheikh mohammed ran his best 3-y-0 BELMEZ to beat his best older horse OLD VIC. would coolmore ever do that?"oligopolistic"
Wow, we must be proud to have someone on the forum who actually knows the word, what it means and how to spell it.
Never thought I would see the day……..
Colin
This is the race won in the last 10 years by:
Swain (Twice)
Daylami
Montjeu
Galileo
Hurricane RunLast year Dylan Thomas, who went on to win the Arc?
By and large for a lot of people now the classic racing trip is 1m2f.
Ascot could reduce the trip by 2f but that would not help the cause.
It cant be through money as it has £850000 in prize money to it.
Just a case of trainers and owners thinking about damaging a horses potential as a stallion after retirement.
The magic of the King George relies on the three year old challenge and in particular Derby winners. Look at this seasons race Youmzain, Duke of Marmalade are there but people are moaning about the race. However, if New Approach were added to the field the race would suddenly "come alive". The Derby winner pitching himself against the best of the older horses – thats what creates excitement and anticipation. Unfortunately it can’t happen this year through no ones fault but there’ll be a next year.
Don’t agree with Neil Watson by the way, I’d rather have a top 12f horse than a 10f one any day.
Just a case of trainers and owners thinking about damaging a horses potential as a stallion after retirement.
Bunkum. Are there a large amount of colts out there who have won over 10f, have the potential to win over 12f, and are swerving the King George because if they win it their stallion value will go down??
The heavy burden of winning over 12f does not seem to affect the lure of the Arc as a stallion-making race, and, although an ideal stallion will have won over both 10 and 12f, the current fees of King George winners Dylan Thomas (50,000 euro), Montjeu (125,000 euro), Hurricane Run (30,000 euro), Azamour (25,000 euro) and Galileo (off the scale) suggest that the King George is not a death knell to a successful career after retirement.
oligopolistic owner
Ah! Nicely put Maxilon.
But, in your own words … define an oligopolistic owner!?
He can’t, you can’t really use the adjective in that way. But my grasp of the English language could be wrong. Good post though Max.
The best performance of each of the runners is the race:
Ask – nose 2nd in Group 1 Oct ’07
Duke Of Marmalade – winner of 3 Group 1s
Lucarno – Group 1 winner Sept ’07
Macarthur – Group 2 winner, 3rd in Group 1 June ’07
Papal Bull – G2 winner
Petara Bay – 3rd in G2
Red Rock Canyon – 3rd in G1
Youmzain – Group 1 winner, and head 2nd in the ArcThe majority are proven as Group 1 class, and the rest have at least been prominent in Group 2. For all that there are no 3yos present, the quality of this year’s renewal is not in doubt.
Rob
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