April 22, 2007 at 07:04 #1465CavParticipant
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Are they moving away from sending money oncourse and using the exchanges to move things their way instead?
(Edited by Cavelino Rampante at 8:34 am on April 22, 2007)April 22, 2007 at 07:39 #54032barry dennisMember
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The title says betfair you then change to exchanges.
William Hill initially said they were going to hedge through betdaq, which is the exchange that 99.9% of on-course bookmakers use ( comm terms far more favourable),
That seems to have changed as they now hedge direct in the ring.
0N-COURSE BOOKS DONT USE betfair the commission KILLSApril 22, 2007 at 08:04 #54035yeatsParticipant
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Anyone will use anything if it’s beneficial to them, often when you get a well backed horse down to say 9/2 you will get 50 or 60 grand going up at say 6/1 or 13/2 just before the off. It’s safe to assume it’s the major bookmakers safe in the knowledge they will be paying sp in their shops.
<br>April 22, 2007 at 09:57 #54036CavParticipant
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The reason I ask was the tidal wave of money on BF in the last 5 minutes for Fever at Nottingham yesterday evening. Colossal sums involved!
(Edited by Cavelino Rampante at 10:58 am on April 22, 2007)April 22, 2007 at 13:38 #54038Shadow LeaderMember
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The large firms do indeed use Betfair, and regularly.
I beg to differ over on-course firms not using Betfair – although I bow to your superior knowledge I do also know for a fact that there are firms who do use it – enough to keep a BF rep in business on-course at least!April 22, 2007 at 13:52 #54040heffoMember
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I’m speaking from recent experience at the Curragh.Alot of the layers had someone on a laptop behind them on their pitch.Got a quick peek at most of the screens and they were invariably looking at betfair markets, hardly just out of curiousity.April 22, 2007 at 16:03 #54043TheMasterMember
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barry dennis,what do you mean bookies on course dont use betfair?, are you saying when a punter has a Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£100 at 10/1, and the bookie wishes to bet it back and tbetfair are 15, he doesnt use betfair?
<br>cmon this aint your newspaper column, give the members a bit of creditApril 22, 2007 at 16:40 #54045WallaceParticipant
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"betdaq, which is the exchange that 99.9% of on-course bookmakers use" Wrong. The percentage of on course bookmakers using Betfair/Betdaq is much closer to 50/50.
The Big3 do use Betfair as well as manipulating the odds on course by sending money to shorten horses. ItÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s a nice arrangement for some on course bookmakers who cooperate with the Big3 in exchange for being able to hedge on Betfair and earn a decent margin.
When industry SPÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s are introduced the flow of money into the on course market will dry up and another trance of bookmakers will pack the game in for good. Blue Square are setting the standard for industry SpÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s and its just a matter of when they are implemented.<br>April 22, 2007 at 19:30 #54046barry dennisMember
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I wish you would back that statement with hard earned
"when industry sp’s" it aint never going to happen
it aint never gonner happen GET IT never never GET IT
the OFT have blown it out , get itApril 22, 2007 at 19:38 #54049Shadow LeaderMember
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More hard earned than "it ain’t never gonna happen, GET IT, GET IT"??
I’m sorry but Industry SPs are inevitable – of course they are going to happen, it’s just a case of when. Nevermind the OFT, they are likely to be structured in such a way that they are drawn from an on-course sample, an off-course [bookmakers] sample and the "exchanges". In which case the OFT have nothing to bleat about.
Face it, Industry SPs will happen sooner or later.April 22, 2007 at 20:57 #54050WallaceParticipant
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Barry Dennis, industry SP’s will happen and within the next 2 to 5 years.
The current system is fraudulent and will be exposed in full. The days of on course bookmakers taking easy money from the Big3 in exchange for shortening the odds will be wiped out. I can understand your resistance to this suggestion but it will happen. The on course market without Big3 money will die and the sooner this happens the better.
Since the current SP system was introduced the FACTS cannot be disputed. Punters are being ripped off big time and this cannot continue.<br>April 23, 2007 at 03:56 #54051PurwellParticipant
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I fail to see how an industry SP will stop punters from being ripped off. Surely all that will happen is the middle men ie. the on-course bookies won’t have the influence, but we’ll be ripped off directly from the big 3?<br>April 23, 2007 at 05:56 #54052PompeteMember
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Wallace – Fraud – Where’s The Evidence? ;)
ExChecker, Raceform Update, 27th December 2006.<br>Everyone knew when the SP reforms were brought in on November 1 that it was bad news for betting shop punters, but at Lingfield on Wednesday they had a glimpse of the future – and it was not so much dark as a total eclispe of the fairness bettors expect as a matter of course…The race that caused the furore was the handicap at 3.35. Cree was backed from 15-8 to evens on course, but on Betfair it never dipped below 2.8 and was available at 3.05 as the market suspended. So how did it go off at evens?
On course layers reported that representatives from Hills and Ladbrokes came in late and strong for the horse, which of course is their prerogative…what is not on is that the move happened so late – the on course bookmakes simply slashed Cree from 15/8 to Evens without without pushing anything else out in the market resulting in an over-round of 134.8 for an eight runner race…and were it not for Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â the Racing Post’s betting editor Paul Kealy, it may have slipped under the radar. But thanks to him, Starting Price Review Committee (SPRC) member Jim Donnelley at least confirmed a review of the race…and by the sounds of it, Barry Dennis, Hills and Ladbrokes should be the first people they should be talking to.
Dennis, who was trading at Lingfield said "Ladbrokes and William Hills decided they wanted to invest many thousands, more than Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£10,000 – probably Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£20,000 – on the favourite in the last minute and half before the off."
"They came sweeping through the ring taking all sorts of prices. First Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,500-Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£800 then Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,400-800, Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,500-Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,000, Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,100-800, Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,100-Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£1,000 so I had Evens on the board at the off. The prices would have been extended if the [off-course] investment had started eariler. This is the clever way to invest money if you want to shorten a price – do it as late as possible. The fact that it was 2/1 with Betfair makes no difference."
And William Hill’s public relations officer, David Hood concurred…"It was so late the course layers hadn’t bothered to push the other prices out. I would like to hightlight that the Betfair price was available to very little money."
What Dennis is effectively saying is that weak rings – and there are plenty, day in and day out…can be bullied into providing whatever SP’s the off-course and hedging firms want.
And one question struck me. If the off-course firms are using the on-course market for legitamate hegding as opposed to market manipulation, why were the representatives prepared to hedge at a price much worse that that available on the exchanges, which they have admitted they now use?
Because one thing is for sure, Hill’s suggestion that the "Betfair price was available to very little money" holds no water whatsoever.
In the light of that claim, the exchange released the following information on Cree:<br>1 – There was Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£352,665.70 matched on Cree pre-race at 2 or greater.<br>4 – There was Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£458.422.70 matched in total on Cree alone in the race.
So we have a situation where there was clearly plenty of liquidity on The Betfair exchange alone (Betdaq is another viable option for hedging) and the price at the off was double the SP. So, if you were limiting your liabilities as a businessman, would you go on course and back it into evens or would you take 2/1. It is the mathematics of a child……
<br>April 23, 2007 at 07:09 #54053carlisleMember
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Barry just wants to be loved.April 23, 2007 at 08:28 #54054SeagullMember
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The high street firms have brought the expertise in rigging horse race markets straight from what they have been doing at the greyhound tracks for years. (especially the ones they own).<br>At Hove which is run by Corals the Coral rep will ‘ask’ for Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£200 or so on the favourite the layers will trim it a point or so but normally no wager takes place. <br>Job done.<br>The 3 bookmakers there now in the afternoons (that have to attend on a rota basis in order to keep the evening positions) cant lay anything off between themselves as the market is so weak.<br>The ones that used to bet ‘to an opinion’ have either left or been ‘requested’ to leave. <br>There used to be at least 12 bookmakers there and they have included Michael Tabor but now its down to 3 and one betting without the fav.<br>The max bet in the on course Coral shop on anything is Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£300.<br>The overounds are normally 120+.<br>If one looks at any bags greyhound market especially in the winter as soon as the horse racing is finished one will see 99.9% of the favs being backed in the shops but in reality at the track its the one rep moving the market normally without even having a bet.<br>Overall does it matter? <br>To the likes of Corals it certainly does but they are not interested in who actually attends the meetings but what liabilties they can reduce in the shops throughout the country.
6 years ago I went to Lingfield Park 26 times.
Last year I went once but have not been once this year.
Even if one was on the max commision with betfair (which no one can be on for long) just missing 4 meetings would save at least Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£100 and with a decent pc with broadband and subs to RUK its no suprise where most are now a days and that is why the attendances are poor and the pitches at most small mid week meetings not worth much at all.<br>Industry prices? who cares! <br>S.P. prices? who cares!<br>Its the exchange prices that matter.
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