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I suppose I was saying the knocking of Galileo as not getting the speed to win over a mile in the Guineas is now debunked.(see the result this year)
Still wouldn’t rush to back any of his over a mile. He’s basically just outstayed a horse who barely gets a mile and a not particularly top class one either. Everyone knows the fillies this season have been appalling (Forgotten Voice just 1L behind Ghanaati), Paco Boy’s Queen Anne form has done nothing but collapse. Meh. AOB’s interview was just sell sell sell.
I do agree with Fist though – Sea The Stars might not be as good as we all thought and I just wonder if Tartan Bearer won’t be good enough to beat him.
Brilliant performance, I didn’t think he was value over the 1m, but class alone has seen him destroy the field and shows the colts are very strong. Rip Van Winkle should line up for the BC Classic, I’d be surprised if he didnt line up there.
Still Sea The Stars beats him over any distance however as good as Rip Van Winkle is, things are panning out just how good STS is.
Still wouldn’t rush to back any of his over a mile. He’s basically just outstayed a horse who barely gets a mile and a not particularly top class one either. Everyone knows the fillies this season have been appalling (Forgotten Voice just 1L behind Ghanaati), Paco Boy’s Queen Anne form has done nothing but collapse. Meh. AOB’s interview was just sell sell sell.
I do agree with Fist though – Sea The Stars might not be as good as we all thought and I just wonder if Tartan Bearer won’t be good enough to beat him.
If Tartan Bearer ever beats Sea The Stars (short of the horse breaking down mid race) I will give up the sport.
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Sea The Stars might not be as good as we thought
Are you serious, Zarkava? What has the horse got to do? He won a decent 2000 Guineas (2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th and 12th have all run well or won since), won a decent Derby (it may not have been run at a more than a crawl early, but mid-race fractions of 44s for three furlongs, a subsequent classic winner in second and the fact that Sea The Stars was never going to be caught give it some credibility) and won a decent Eclipse from two subsequent Group 1 winners having idled noticeably until challenged.
Zarkava beats Youmzain receiving 11lb and gets put on a pedastal, Sea The Stars achieves all of the above (and in doing so clocks an electric time at Sandown) and gets no praise whatsoever.
And I thought I was blinkered.
I said ‘might’, didn’t I?
Zarkava beats Youmzain receiving 11lb and gets put on a pedastal
What’s the weight got to do with it? That’s the whole point of the WFA, to make things even.
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You also said ‘Ghanaati…clearly a very special filly’ following her victory in the Coronation at Ascot.
Why does she now support your view that the Sussex form is weak?
Excuse me people…i believe i’ve stumbled onto a racing forum and my sight isn’t what it once was, can anyone tell me what happened to RVW. I was watching the race and all these horses were fighting it out, but RVW wasn’t in sight….he might’ve been too far in front of my spectacles.
http://i30.tinypic.com/160v2n9.jpg
Heh hehe the 10/1 for the BC dosen’t look so bad now !
I think Ghanaati was better than that, although could be that she needs really fast ground to see her at her best, was sad to see her well beaten like that.
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Oh I’ll get there mate don’t worry about that
You also said ‘Ghanaati…clearly a very special filly’ following her victory in the Coronation at Ascot.
Why does she now support your view that the Sussex form is weak?
Well if I did say it then I have no idea why, I’ve been slagging off these fillies for weeks. Haven’t had a good word to say about any of them.
A lot of the praise for Sea The Stars seems to stem from him having won the Derby, except it wasn’t run like a Derby, it was run like a secondary 2000 Guineas. The only stayers who ran well in it were Fame And Glory and Masterofthehorse. The 4th and 5th are clearly speedy types, as is the winner. The sectionals say the race was run much more like a 1m race.
The form behind the front 5 has been appalling. Even the 3rd and 5th’s form has been appalling. MOTH finished last in the Gordon Stakes for goodness sakes.
I’m just looking at Sea Sail and he was beaten further over 8f by MCM than he was beaten over 10f by Sea The Stars, and considering the speed they went at in the Eclipse, that doesn’t bode well.
Anyway, all I know is that the 3yo form isn’t good. The French Derby form has been appalling, the French 2000 form has been appalling, the Irish Oaks form looks as if it’s appalling, the Irish Derby form has been appalling, the GP de Paris form involves a Queen’s Vase runner being involved in the finish, the 1000 Guineas form has been appalling and the Derby form has been very hit and miss.
There are quite a few formlines which suggest that Mastercraftsman is within 1 length of Sea The Stars, if not better, and I think Mastercraftsman has looked pretty slow in all 4 of his last starts.
I hope Tartan Bearer turns up in the Juddmonte, either to continue or end this debate, but I’d be extremely surprised to see 3yos win any of the major prizes left this season if pitched against the better of the older horses.
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Brilliant performance, I didn’t think he was value over the 1m, but class alone has seen him destroy the field and shows the colts are very strong. Rip Van Winkle should line up for the BC Classic, I’d be surprised if he didnt line up there.
Still Sea The Stars beats him over any distance however as good as Rip Van Winkle is, things are panning out just how good STS is.
You know Red sometimes I think you are sleeping with Sea the Stars
How can you make a statement like that with so much confidence after witnessing that today? Now you are tellng us the filly is better than that. If you stuck a rocket up her backside she wouldn’t get anywhere near Rip Van Winkle which was always the fear. Our fillies straying with Fantasia and Rainbow View have been very disappointing this year and they are simply not that good.
Looking at Rip Van Winkles carrer again he has gone to the Guineas undercooked. Murtagh said before the Derby he was a much better horse but as we have just seen the Derby wasn’t his trip. He ran well but only because of the very slow pace. He’s then taken on Sea the Stars in the Eclipse and again the trip turned out to be his downfall with the Derby winner definitely staying the trip much better than he did .
I was lucky enough to spot it and Murtagh said it before todays race. As you pint out he has put up a top class performance and let’s not forget due to his stable companion stopping to a walk early doors he’s had to do it the hard way.
If Sea the Stars met over a mile again I think it would be fair to say there would be very little betwen them. I would back Rip to beat him for one simple reason. Over a mile if he came at Sea the Stars the way he did in the Eclipse at this trip he most likely would go through with it and I doubt if Sea the Stars would respond well enough.
Sea the Stars is al lovely horse but he doesn’t have the zip of the great champions of the past. Mick Kinane reckons he would never win any race any further that a length and a half and laughed at John Oxx when he suggested he win the Eclipse as far as he could.
No matter how good a horse is that’s a dangerous game to be playing and if you are challenged strong and late you have a good chance of going down.
It would be a fantastic race to watch if these two met again but Oxx is not a fool and he try not to give AOB the chance to steal the horses limelight.
However he looks like meeting Mastercraftsman next and that could go AOB’s way if it comes toa duel between the two. Mastercraftsman has never lost a fight yet so I would imagine Oxx will be racking his brain on how best to avoid that.
Right now I would be in Sea the Stars corner as he can pull that length and a half out of a horse and as we saw against Rip in the Eclipse he does run on under pressure and finds a bit.
The simple way to look at it is take a line through Delegator and Sea the Stars should win easily but races are never the same and OAB is brilliant at coming up with tactics to cause major upsets.
Interesting race if not one to bet in
Take Sea The Stars out of the Coral Eclipse you have a superb 4.5l beating Conduit a King George Winner.
Put Sea The Stars in the Sussex Stakes, Sea The Stars wins yet again while Rip looks a great 2nd.
Remember Oxx has said he thinks Sea The Stars has that much speed he would win a 6f G1. As much as a outstanding horse RVW is its just unfortunate think for Coolmore that there is a even better horse in Sea The Stars.
People forget Sea The Stars quickend to get past who he was beating on his side in the 2000 Guineas and when he pulled alomg to Delegator he quickened again and ran out a very easy winner of a Guineas, Derby he didnt need to quicken all that much cause his speed had already had them beat, then in the Eclipse there is no doubt how impressive he was when Rip Van challeged upsides and how he just easy he was able to respond when Kinane asked the question of STS.
Sea The Stars has done enough for Coolmore to try and avoid STS for Rip Van Winkle and only rain at Leopardstown would see the rematch, it was an outstaning effort from Rip Van Winkle to get close to him and give him such a battle but its obvious Sea The Stars is the better horse, to say otherwise is only paying heed to own interests.
"Zarkava" wrote: Still wouldn’t rush to back any of his over a mile. He’s basically just outstayed a horse who barely gets a mile and a not particularly top class one either. Everyone knows the fillies this season have been appalling (Forgotten Voice just 1L behind Ghanaati), Paco Boy’s Queen Anne form has done nothing but collapse. Meh. AOB’s interview was just sell sell sell.
I do agree with Fist though – Sea The Stars might not be as good as we all thought and I just wonder if Tartan Bearer won’t be good enough to beat him.
That could be just about the funniest thing I’ve ever read!
Tartan bearer isn’t fit to pacemake for Sea The Stars!
A very smart performance from Rip Van Winkle and one that does nothing but compliment the brilliance of Sea The Stars.
A very smart performance, but I can’t see how it entitles him to beat the dual Classic winner.
Sea The Stars and Rip Van Winkle have met three times over three different distances and the result has been the same on all three occasions – a victory for the John Oxx trained colt.
The tactics that Ballydoyle employed today were very clever. Rip has shown a reluctance to put his head in front, doesn’t have instant acceleration, but stays further – so what do you do? You settle him just off the pacemaker and kick on early.
Those tactics may or may not be used in the future, but if they are he’ll be nothing more than a sitting duck for Sea The Stars.
A return to usual tactics and, well, we’ve already seen what happens.
The form of both The Derby and Eclipse is solid. Fame And Glory has come out and won an Irish Derby, Rip Van Winkle has just won the Sussex and Conduit won the King George.
Sea The Stars and Rip will continue to dominate the older horses and Fame And Glory will have their measure when he gets hold of them.
Conduit was well beaten in The Eclipse and won with a bit in hand against Tartan Bearer. The result should Sea The Stars or Rip Van Winkle meet the latter should be fairly obvious.
The only horse capable of beating Sea The Stars is Fame And Glory over twelve furlongs. Whether or not they meet over that distance again is anyones guess.
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