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I do sometimes support the under dog. I was actually accused of being an anti irish racist by a poster called ‘Eclipse First’ the last time i said i didn’t like Ballydoyle. I guess my under dog comment was to avoid the finger pointers and keyboard spitters, because i knew the answer they wanted !
Seems like Cecil and OBrien want what’s best for the future of their horses.ie stud value.So Aidan should duck the Leger like Cecil ducked the Derby.No?
Seems like Cecil and OBrien want what’s best for the future of their horses.ie stud value.So Aidan should duck the Leger like Cecil ducked the Derby.No?
So if Aiden and the lads are so sporting I wonder what happened with Holy Roman Emperor? Not sure Cecil ever retired a fully fit 2 year old.
As much as I would love to see Camelot win the Triple Crown it has been really convenient to aim him for Leger as they have not had to come up with an excuse to duck Frankel. Because let’s be honest Andy me old chum – duck Frankel they most certainly would!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Jonibake I will do my best to explain the situation with Holy Roman Emperor from memory. He was unbeaten at 2, his record was four runs and four wins.Aidan took him home to prepare for the Guineas.Next thing he got a call from Coolmore to say they needed him to take the place of Gorgeous George. So he was shuttled over to the stud immediately to serve the line of mares waiting for George.After all Coolmore is a business and Ballydoyle the showroom.Aidan was shocked to lose his Guineas horse and the mares were delighted to get the Emperor.No more than Aidan, Henry has no say in what horses he trains and what horses he does not but to compare him to Coolmore is the apples and oranges comparison.So I for one don’t see the comparison between a commercial trainer and a stud farm trainer as "sportsman".As for ducking; Frankel by Galileo, ducked the whole progressive season for classic 3yos; check STS to understand what I mean.
My last comment to you as this is a Leger thread but I thought it might be fun to play you at your own pathetic game:
Your memory serves you poorly. HRE ran 7 times winning 4. I suppose they felt they didn’t quite have enough stallions?
So Coolmore is a business but Juddmonte isn’t? Frankel ran and won a classic. I am checking STS form but can’t find his 4 year old record anywhere. I think they retired him before he had the chance to race without WFA or on adverse ground conditions. What might have been hey Andy if they hadn’t DUCKED a 4 year old campaign?
Adieu
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I am checking STS form but can’t find his 4 year old record anywhere. I think they retired him before he had the chance to race without WFA or on adverse ground conditions.
STS was retired to stud at 3. Not sure what you mean by adverse ground conditions as he won on soft/heavy, soft, good to soft, good and good to firm.
Do you understand the word "irony" Brigadier? I don’t think so.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
My last comment to you as this is a Leger thread but I thought it might be fun to play you at your own pathetic game:
Your memory serves you poorly. HRE ran 7 times winning 4. I suppose they felt they didn’t quite have enough stallions? :shock
:
So Coolmore is a business but Juddmonte isn’t? Frankel ran and won a classic. I am checking STS form but can’t find his 4 year old record anywhere. I think they retired him before he had the chance to race without WFA or on adverse ground conditions. What might have been hey Andy if they hadn’t DUCKED a 4 year old campaign?
Adieu
Jonibake, Coolmore wouldn’t have wanted to retire HRE, but what alternative did they have.
Disappoint about 150 breeders at last minute who expected their horse to be covered by George Washington. With no chance at that stage to book another stallion of similar quality. HRE had a similar type backgreound in terms of breeding, so he made a good last minute replacement.
It would have been a commercial disaster, to watch all those breeders desert Coolmore as they’d have felt pissed off and not used their stallions in future year. so, it’s not just a 1 year sporting decision. It could have undermined their whole operation at Coolmore
Besides, they keep plenty of horses in training afer 3. For example, Dylan thomas, Duke of Marmalde, Treasure Beach, Cape Blanco, F&G, Yeats, SNA. To lambast them for making a sensible business decision is a bit tough regarding HRE.
Great post Musicfan. I have been drawn into a petty feud with Andyod who spends his whole time on here berating Frankel, Sir Henry Cecil and Prince Khaled for what he perceives to be a gutless campaign. I am fighting back when I should just let it drop.
In talking about HRE I am merely pointing out that sometimes decisions are made not necessarily for the good of the sport but for perfectly valid commercial or other reasons. With HRE of course the decision made sense. I completely agree that Aiden keeps plenty in training. I love Sea The Stars and thought he was a true champion even if, FOR PERFECTLY VALID REASONS they retired him at 3. My above posts are what I might have written if I saw the world through Andy’s horrible little distorted world. I tried to make that clear by saying "I thought it might be fun to play you at your own pathetic game."
But if I can see all this why can’t Andy? Why can’t HE see that Sir H has also kept many of his champions in training over the years INCLUDING Frankel?! Why can’t he see that they have always done what they feel is right by the horse? Why must he infect every thread with his venomous prejudice? Why is he not banned?!!!!
He has Emerald spectacles and has a passionate dislike for Sir Henry Cecil. He is a nasty troll and brings this otherwise fantastic site down. In my opinion.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Jonibake,Of course I can see but what good would a tennis match be with only one player? I agree I am a troll and a bottom feeder but necessary for the life of those who live in the ocean.
Must learn to avoid impulsive responses Jonibake.However I do need to point out I have been quite critical of Ballydoyle many,many times on this site,not to mention Howard Johnston and other trainers fined for doping their horses.Also jockeys, for reckless riding and endangering others.
Do you understand the word "irony" Brigadier? I don’t think so.
Perhaps I should have followed your running verbal clash with andyod more closely but then again perhaps I shouldn’t have at all.
The comparison with Frankel is somewhat distracting to the possibility of a Triple Crown winner, which in my mind is worth more than many group ones, but that is only in my mind not a statement of fact.
Camelot has not won the Triple Crown yet, he may or may not, but I do think the reaction to the size of task any 3yo faces in attempting it is seriously underestimated in the racing press and in general comment. Whats required?A Triple Crown winner must come to hand early, he must have a constitution that can overcome a European winter and be precocious enough to be fit and competitive against his contempories very early in the season (late April/early May).
He must have the speed to beat the best milers over 8f, on a straight course, when many of those horses have this as their only legitimate classic target. The straight course part is important, there are no bends to slow the runners down nor short straights to provide a natural start to the sprint for home. Fields may split (he may be lucky/well ridden and be in the right group or he may not)and he has to be able to manouvere at high speed. Athleticism, physicality and tactical speed.
Four weeks later he is asked to handle Epsom, long uphill pull to start, downhill on a left hand turn, adverse camber, long drive up the straight into a funnel of 80,000 spectators. Against him will be a group of horses who often, from across Europe, have been bred specifically for this 12 furlong contest in suburban Surrey. Who’s owners and breeders imagined little else than this test and this opportunity. Speed, balance, class and stamina
Then he has to stay fit, usually he will have one or two races between Epsom and Doncaster before arriving in Yorkshire to meet the last leg that is the St Leger. One or two other things are present…expectation for one and therefore the nerves and potential for rashness when the biggest prizes are so close. Also a Triple Crwon aspirant will have a big target on his back, you can be sure that tactics for all other participants will concentrate on getting him beat. The long Doncaster straight is surely longest for connections of a triple crown runner. Versatility, Robustness and Endurance
So not only must he be versatile, talented and robust within himself he must be better than the best of 3 other populations of horses at 8f,12f and 14f+ . Remember he doesnt travel to Doncaster to spar with the same horses he met at Newmarket many of those are long since specialists at other trips, retired, injured or sold. The St Leger opponents are not obliged to target all the races and can stick to their speciality. I am exaggerating for effect but there is something of the boxing booth fighter taking on a fresh challenge every time the bell rings, about him.
Its a remarkable achievement if a colt can master it and frankly from my point of view no amount of focus on the recent, heavily endowed, end of season 10 furlong contests can diminish this.
We have waited 42 years to even have peek at it. 42 long years…I was eight when Nijinsky ran at Doncaster and I knew (thanks to my father) that this was a very special day.
I am very excited about Saturday and I hope Camelot wins, I am truly puzzled by those that feel he won’t deserve much acclaim if he triumphs or is undeserving of his place in the history of the sport if he is successful.
Have his critics really thought hard about why it is so rare or what is required to succeed?The comparison with Frankel is somewhat distracting to the possibility of a Triple Crown winner, which in my mind is worth more than many group ones, but that is only in my mind not a statement of fact.
Camelot has not won the Triple Crown yet, he may or may not, but I do think the reaction to the size of task any 3yo faces in attempting it is seriously underestimated in the racing press and in general comment. Whats required?A Triple Crown winner must come to hand early, he must have a constitution that can overcome a European winter and be precocious enough to be fit and competitive against his contempories very early in the season (late April/early May).
He must have the speed to beat the best milers over 8f, on a straight course, when many of those horses have this as their only legitimate classic target. The straight course part is important, there are no bends to slow the runners down nor short straights to provide a natural start to the sprint for home. Fields may split (he may be lucky/well ridden and be in the right group or he may not)and he has to be able to manouvere at high speed. Athleticism, physicality and tactical speed.
Four weeks later he is asked to handle Epsom, long uphill pull to start, downhill on a left hand turn, adverse camber, long drive up the straight into a funnel of 80,000 spectators. Against him will be a group of horses who often, from across Europe, have been bred specifically for this 12 furlong contest in suburban Surrey. Who’s owners and breeders imagined little else than this test and this opportunity. Speed, balance, class and stamina
Then he has to stay fit, usually he will have one or two races between Epsom and Doncaster before arriving in Yorkshire to meet the last leg that is the St Leger. One or two other things are present…expectation for one and therefore the nerves and potential for rashness when the biggest prizes are so close. Also a Triple Crwon aspirant will have a big target on his back, you can be sure that tactics for all other participants will concentrate on getting him beat. The long Doncaster straight is surely longest for connections of a triple crown runner. Versatility, Robustness and Endurance
So not only must he be versatile, talented and robust within himself he must be better than the best of 3 other populations of horses at 8f,12f and 14f+ . Remember he doesnt travel to Doncaster to spar with the same horses he met at Newmarket many of those are long since specialists at other trips, retired, injured or sold. The St Leger opponents are not obliged to target all the races and can stick to their speciality. I am exaggerating for effect but there is something of the boxing booth fighter taking on a fresh challenge every time the bell rings, about him.
Its a remarkable achievement if a colt can master it and frankly from my point of view no amount of focus on the recent, heavily endowed, end of season 10 furlong contests can diminish this.
We have waited 42 years to even have peek at it. 42 long years…I was eight when Nijinsky ran at Doncaster and I knew (thanks to my father) that this was a very special day.
I am very excited about Saturday and I hope Camelot wins, I am truly puzzled by those that feel he won’t deserve much acclaim if he triumphs or is undeserving of his place in the history of the sport if he is successful.
Have his critics really thought hard about why it is so rare or what is required to succeed?Couldn’t have been said better and I couldnt agree more.
cant wait for the race, full of nerves already. The comparison with Frankel is somewhat distracting to the possibility of a Triple Crown winner, which in my mind is worth more than many group ones………………Have his critics really thought hard about why it is so rare or what is required to succeed?
Well said Shabby. Like you, I was eight in September 1970 and remember Nijinsky’s win as if it were 12 months ago. Looking back now I think that is was probably my father’s enthusiasm for Nijinsky’s achievement that day, more that any other influence, that was responsible for my developing a fascination with flat racing that has remained with me to this day. I remember him explaining to me, as you have done so eloquently in your post, why this was such a special achievement. Since then I have never dwelt too much on whether Nijinsky’s 3yo rivals were above or below average and I never did take the time to do much research on the Bahram 3yo crop of 1935 either.
If it wasn’t for Nijinsky and his Triple Crown in 1970 would I be visiting The Racing Forum (almost) every day since I stumbled across the site a few years ago? Maybe I would have been bitten by the bug anyway, but I am not sure about that.
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