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I always hoped that one day I’d see a triple crown winner. There has been one in my lifetime (Nijinsky) but I was only wee at the time.
So I am hugely excited at the thought of Camelot turning up at Doncaster. I thought Nashwan could have done it but they routed him to the Arc and they ran the Leger at Ayr that year so, somehow, it wouldn’t have quite been the same.
Interesting comments from Magnier on the BBC yesterday ‘twenty years ago if it [a triple crown] had been on the table I might have looked the other way’ (or similar words).
It looks like it could happen.
I’m all for it…are you?
Willie Carson summed this up extremely well on Friday.
"It would be good for the punter/spectator for him to do the triple crown, but not for the horse himself as his stud value will fall."
This might stopped a few trying, and in my opinion the St Leger is not the race it once was, and is only a group 1 status in name only.
Willie Carson summed this up extremely well on Friday.
"It would be good for the punter/spectator for him to do the triple crown, but not for the horse himself as his stud value will fall."
Willie is talking out of his bottom.
What blind bit of difference does it make if he runs it or not as he will clearly hack up, which is why he will be 1/3 or shorter.
It’s like saying his stud value would decrease if he runs and wins in a handicap, just because he doesn’t run a handicap it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t/couldn’t win it.
Anyone considering sending their mare to Camelot if he doesn’t run the St Leger will know it’s only because he didn’t run as he is the Leger winner anyway, it’s just daft saying his value is determined by whether he gets on a lorry or not.
I’ve voted yes simply because I’m a little bit of a traditionalist and like yourself I was very young when Nijinsky did it.
I don’t subscribe to the view that it would affect his stud value, by winning a G1 at 2 a Guineas and a Derby, he has proved without question he is the best 3 year colt in Europe and has shown all the attributes any breeder might look for Precocity, Speed, Stamina, Temperament and Class.
Despite voting for them to go for the Triple Crown I would dearly love them to have a crack at Frankel, York would seem the most likely place because there is a nice space before the St Leger.
One positive reason why this might happen is what else have Ballydoyle got that might have any conceivable chance. So You Think will be winging his way back to Oz by then, surely they won’t subject Excelebration to another mauling and they have a very able back-up in the one that finished 3rd in the Derby who would have a major chance if turning up at Doncaster.
A clash of the generations, two unbeaten colts on a very fair flat track over a distance that I for one don’t think would compromise the chance of either. Then and perhaps only then will we see just how good Frankel is.
Willie Carson summed this up extremely well on Friday.
"It would be good for the punter/spectator for him to do the triple crown, but not for the horse himself as his stud value will fall."
Willie is talking out of his bottom.
What blind bit of difference does it make if he runs it or not as he will clearly hack up, which is why he will be 1/3 or shorter.
It’s like saying his stud value would decrease if he runs and wins in a handicap, just because he doesn’t run a handicap it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t/couldn’t win it.
Anyone considering sending their mare to Camelot if he doesn’t run the St Leger will know it’s only because he didn’t run as he is the Leger winner anyway, it’s just daft saying his value is determined by whether he gets on a lorry or not.
Okay then if the St Leger should still be considered a group 1 status let’s examine some past winners.
Masked Marvel only won a group 3 race before winning last year.
Arctic Cosmos never won in group company, was 2nd in a group 2.
Mastery won a group 2 as a 2YO, only placed in a group 1.
Conduit won a group 3 race.
Lucarno won a group 2 race.
Scorpion won a group 1 race in france.
Rule Of Law won a group 2 race.
Brian Boru never won a group race before but placed in a group 2.
Bollin Eric never won a group race before but placed in a group 2.
Milan won a group 2 race.These are the last ten winners of the St Leger, apart from Scorpion who won at Longchamp the rest are group 2/3 type horses and any genuine group 1 horse should have no trouble in winning but how many went on to be successful at Stud, (where the real money is made)
Willie Carson summed this up extremely well on Friday.
"It would be good for the punter/spectator for him to do the triple crown, but not for the horse himself as his stud value will fall."
This might stopped a few trying, and in my opinion the St Leger is not the race it once was, and is only a group 1 status in name only.
To be fair to Willie he did go on to say that usually St Leger winners become NH stallions but that a triple crown winner has already proven himself blessed with the speed to win a clasic over 8f and both he and Claire Balding actually concluded that a triple crown winning St Leger winner’s stud value would not actually be adversely effected by winning the Doncaster classic.
Willie Carson summed this up extremely well on Friday.
"It would be good for the punter/spectator for him to do the triple crown, but not for the horse himself as his stud value will fall."
Willie is talking out of his bottom.
What blind bit of difference does it make if he runs it or not as he will clearly hack up, which is why he will be 1/3 or shorter.
It’s like saying his stud value would decrease if he runs and wins in a handicap, just because he doesn’t run a handicap it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t/couldn’t win it.
Anyone considering sending their mare to Camelot if he doesn’t run the St Leger will know it’s only because he didn’t run as he is the Leger winner anyway, it’s just daft saying his value is determined by whether he gets on a lorry or not.
Okay then if the St Leger should still be considered a group 1 status let’s examine some past winners.
Masked Marvel only won a group 3 race before winning last year.
Arctic Cosmos never won in group company, was 2nd in a group 2.
Mastery won a group 2 as a 2YO, only placed in a group 1.
Conduit won a group 3 race.
Lucarno won a group 2 race.
Scorpion won a group 1 race in france.
Rule Of Law won a group 2 race.
Brian Boru never won a group race before but placed in a group 2.
Bollin Eric never won a group race before but placed in a group 2.
Milan won a group 2 race.These are the last ten winners of the St Leger, apart from Scorpion who won at Longchamp the rest are group 2/3 type horses and any genuine group 1 horse should have no trouble in winning but how many went on to be successful at Stud, (where the real money is made)
Conduit is a 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner and he won the G1 KGVI & QEII Stakes. He was most definitely a group 1 horse.
Brian Boru won the G1 Racing Post Trophy.
Scorpion won the G1 Coronation Cup as well.To be fair to Willie he did go on to say that usually St Leger winners become NH stallions but that a triple crown winner has already proven himself blessed with the speed to win a clasic over 8f and both he and Claire Balding actually concluded that a triple crown winning St Leger winner’s stud value would not actually be adversely effected by winning the Doncaster classic.
Yes I believe he did, but as much as I like National Hunt racing
we all know it’s the poorer relation to the flat
Conduit is a 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner and he won the G1 KGVI & QEII Stakes. He was most definitely a group 1 horse.
Brian Boru won the G1 Racing Post Trophy.
Scorpion won the G1 Coronation Cup as well.So in the ten examples, I give (mainly because they were the last ten) you given me 3 horses whose stud career are a success, at the top level. I thought Scorpion might be one, so do concede on the other 2, however in the 42 years which has past in the time Nijinsky won, most of the winners have come from nowhere to disappear back into nowhere.
A list of all the winners from 1970
1970 Nijinsky
1971 Athens Wood
1972 Boucher
1973 Peleid
1974 Bustino
1975 Bruni
1976 Crow
1977 Dunfermline
1978 Julio Mariner
1979 Son of Love
1980 Light Cavalry
1981 Cut Above
1982 Touching Wood
1983 Sun Princess
1984 Commanche Run
1985 Oh So Sharp
1986 Moon Madness
1987 Reference Point
1988 Minster Son
1989 Michelozzo
1990 Snurge
1991 Toulon
1992 User Friendly
1993 Bob’s Return
1994 Moonax
1995 Classic Cliche
1996 Shantou
1997 Silver Patriarch
1998 Nedawi
1999 Mutafaweq
2000 Millenary
2001 Milan
2002 Bollin Eric
2003 Brian Boru
2004 Rule of Law
2005 Scorpion
2006 Sixties Icon
2007 Lucarno
2008 Conduit
2009 Mastery
2010 Arctic Cosmos
2011 Masked MarvelHow many of these have proven themselves in producing top level offsprings in mating?
You have missed out Sixties Icon, whose stud career has showed distinct promise this season. Your illustration of the pre-Leger careers of the most recent winners merely shows why Camelot has a better chance of success at stud than them. He is more precocious and had the speed to win over a mile at the highest level.
Any excuse for people to knock Doncaster Races every year people moan about the Lincoln, The Leger etc and yet The Lincoln is still one of Channel 4 Racing’s most watched shows.
The Leger is only as good as the horses who enter it it’s up to the trainers to get their best horses there and support it.
The problem is too many people fawn over Cheltenham, Newmarket & York if the Leger was held at any of those it would be the best thing going.
Don’t be knocking Donny
Beat me to it EF.
Sixties Icon is by Galileo out of Oaks winner Love Divine. Standing at Norman Court Stud West Tytherley Wiltshire.Value Is EverythingHe’s made a great start and bred like that is bound to get better mares now he’s shown such promise.
It takes a very special colt to win the Triple Crown.
In a sport where the difference between great and good can be seperated by a furlong, the ability to demonstrate precociousness and speed in May, agility in June, courage and stamina in September is a rarity.
Stud value. Stud value. Stud value. I’m thoroughly p***ed off with hearing about it. Mmmm, I wonder why National Hunt racing slams flat racing in the popularity stakes.
I will ask this question in a way that shows that I have a heart beating inside my body:
Money and greed, or immortality and romance?
It takes a very special colt to win the Triple Crown.
In a sport where the difference between great and good can be seperated by a furlong, the ability to demonstrate precociousness and speed in May, agility in June, courage and stamina in September is a rarity.
Stud value. Stud value. Stud value. I’m thoroughly p***ed off with hearing about it. Mmmm, I wonder why National Hunt racing slams flat racing in the popularity stakes.
I will ask this question in a way that shows that I have a heart beating inside my body:
Money and greed, or immortality and romance?
Nicely put. Go for it, the last colt to achieve it remains a Legend to this very day despite a losing effort in the Arc.
He’s made a great start and bred like that is bound to get better mares now he’s shown such promise.
Norman Court Stud’s owner Mick Channon should be on Cloud Nine at the moment. What with Sixties Icon getting off to a great start. Plus Irish 1000 Guineas winner Samitar and today Prix Sandringham winner Laugh Out Loud both being not only trained by Mick, but bred by Norman Court Stud too.
Value Is EverythingA clash of the generations, two unbeaten colts on a very fair flat track over a distance that I for one don’t think would compromise the chance of either. Then and perhaps only then will we see just how good Frankel is.
I can never resist an an opportunity to mention what I regard as the best race I have ever seen – the 1972 Benson & Hedges Gold Cup. I was a young boy then but I still remember the excitement of the clash between the then unbeaten miler and that year’s Derby winner. The brilliant performance of the 3 year old to inflict a first defeat on the seemingly unbeatable 4 year old is still the race I most enjoy replaying 40 years later.
I have voted yes to the St. Leger for Camelot and I would love to see him emulate Nijinsky and co. – but a clash between Camelot and Frankel at York (or Sandown for that matter) has the potential to be one of those really special moments in racing that would live long in the memory of racing fans. That would definitely get my vote. Would it be too much to ask for both?
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