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Excellent the forum clock is now right !!! …..Maybe
However, it didn’t seem like good management of the situation at the last fence.
I’m not talking through my pocket as I backed Finian’s Rainbow and won.
If any of the horses had jumped that hurdle after being steered around the last, it would have been carnage.
Laughing stock tbhYeah, this is another aspect that needs looking into. Why are they there ? That course is being used ?
Why do the crowds have to be next to the fence ? One day a horse will run out or fall and kill someone. We shouldn’t need tragedies to make progressive changes.
There is no need for people to be that close to the fence or on the course.Maybe I like racing and can laugh at the
pomposity
, maybe it’s a shame so many people who used to post here didn’t stay.
Listen to yourself – bad day at the office was it?
Pot, kettle, black.
May be people get fed up and leave because of others making problems for no reason.
Value Is EverythingIs that your answer whenever questioned, turn it round and point it back, every time – that’s not a defence and doesn’t make you right ginge – don’t you or others notice what other forums say about this one, did you not notice when somebody well known pointed out too many heads were up too many backsides here, on the betfair forum, hence why they no longer bother here?
Like I said earlier, lighten up, it’s just a forum.
What was wrong with another thread here that really merited mentioning, why that one, when there are so many others, why is that such a trait here?
In case you can’t let it go, I’ll not say another word on it.
Sberry,
I’ll try to elaborate on my explanation. You’ve totally misunderstood my intentions. Sorry if this bores everyone to death.The post wasn’t meant as any put dpwn.
I have absolutely no objection to threads overlapping in Cheltenham and Horse Racing sections. It is only natural.
I don’t particularly have an objection to Lee’s thread either. But when Lee’s thread is called “
Cheltenham bets day 2
” and Elgransenor’s thread is “
Cheltenham day 2 selections
” it is obvious Lee didn’t know Elgransenor’s thread existed. The two don’t just overlap, they are the same.
If people posting in Lee’s thread know that Elgransenor’s thread existed, and still want to post in it, then that is fine by me. Didn’t particularly want it moved. I just thought it best to inform everyone who did not realise a thread already existed.. Including Lee, who may well enjoy reading Elgransenor’s thread.
Also, if people read only one of the two threads, they’d only know what half of TRF thought. Another reason to point the duplication out.
Sorry for trying to help and my part in any misunderstanding. Will try and leave any “helping” to Corm and Matron in future.
Now can we please forget about it and get on with Cheltenham?
Your favourite teacher
GingeValue Is EverythingThis forum could do with a "bickering" section in order to prevent tiresome derailments like this.
Back on topic, so long as spectators and photographers in no way interfere with the runners and riders, I have no problem with people standing close to the action on a strictly "at one’s own risk" basis. A steeplechaser in flight is one of life’s truly exhilarating spectacles. Especially when viewed in close proximity as OP’s avatar attests. Besides, many national hunt racecourses already have obstacles that run alongside viewing enclosures.
The whole "was it dolled?" question was a complete shambles. Those in charge directly interfered with the outcome of a championship decider. This is inexcusable and heads need to roll for it.
No problem at all, both jockeys read the situation.
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highwaysThe whole "was it dolled?" question was a complete shambles. Those in charge directly interfered with the outcome of a championship decider. This is inexcusable and heads need to roll for it.
Why?
Mike
The whole "was it dolled?" question was a complete shambles. Those in charge directly interfered with the outcome of a championship decider. This is inexcusable and heads need to roll for it.
Why?
Mike
Because not only has the sport been unnecessarily deprived of a legitimate champion in the two mile chasers’ division but twelve months of preparation and a year of ageing have been for nothing for the connections of Sizing Europe.
Whilst Sizing Europe may or may not have won given ample time for Andrew Lynch to recognise the dolling and alter his course accordingly, one can safely say that he wasn’t given a fair crack of retaining his crown.
Lynch knows the rules and has a pair of eyes, there was adequate time for him to react if alert enough.
Value Is EverythingThe same could be said for Geraghty and even he said that he would have followed Lynch in whatever he would have done. On this evidence, it would be unreasonable to assume that either man actually had adequate time.
It’s even more unreasonable for jockeys mid-drive in a championship event to be put in this position at all. Safety concerns aside, the only responsibility of the course is to ensure the fairest possible conditions for determining the best two mile chaser of the season. These conditions were not provided and as a result, Finians Rainbow will always have a perfectly avoidable "what if" against his crown and Sizing Europe will likely be past his peak thus unable to prove the result wrong.
The point is that the safety concerns were put first. If the result was affected, which seems unlikely as the race was won by producing Finians Rainbow as late as possible, then it is a small price to pay.
originally published on my blog:
Senior stipendiary steward William Nunneley and Jamie Stier, director of Raceday Operations and Regulation at the BHA both appeared on TV today to defend the procedure used in the bypassing of the last fence in the Queen Mother Champion Chase. The summary of both interviews was that the regulations were carried out in a proper fashion and that ‘the jockeys had their heads down’.
BHA general instructions 3.7, section 10 b) states:
as soon as possible after an obstruction occurs, plant the direction markers exactly opposite to the central position of any obstruction on the take-off or landing side, whether it be an injured horse or Rider or any essential equipment of the First Aid organisation dealing with such horse or Rider. No gaps should be left between each marker;
The markers were originally set out equally spaced, with gaps, across the fence: how soon after that they were moved to the position designated above, I don’t know.
c) proceed further down the course on the opposite side to which the obstacle is being bypassed, and signal to oncoming Riders, by means of the Fox 40 whistle and the black and white chequered flag, the presence of a hazard ahead. The position taken up by the Fence Attendant should ensure that Riders have sufficient time to react to the situation ahead (see Annex C). This distance should be increased if the obstacle is positioned soon after a bend
j) if necessary, use the black and white chequered flag and Fox 40 whistle to signal the presence of a possible hazard ahead in other circumstances (e.g. a fall on the flat or between obstacles) where the hazard does not necessitate the stopping of the race. The position taken up by the Fence Attendant should ensure that Riders have sufficient time to react to the situation ahead;
The annex (C) to the document explains the duties in more detail.
2. Either one or two Fence Attendants will also stand in a prominent position down the course, but on the opposite side to which the obstacle is to be bypassed, and:
i) blow a Fox 40 whistle, and;
ii) wave a black and white chequered flag to indicate the presence of a hazard ahead.The position taken by the Fence Attendant(s) will be approximately 70 yards ahead of the obstacle.
It is difficult to tell from TV footage how far from the last fence the flag was waved – I estimate it to be about ten horse-lengths, nothing like the 70 yards laid down in the document although a graphic offers some leeway on this 70 yard rule (I can find this leeway exemption only on the graphic and not as part of the document text).
Mr Nunneley and Mr Stier both justified the moving of the markers to the inside by mentioning the importance of protecting the vulnerable from a loose horse. In fact, that clustering of markers is what BHA procedure decrees.
But what is wrong with increasing the number of markers available at each fence, or, indeed, dolling the fence off fully with cones, so that jockeys are left in no doubt?
The Fox whistle is one used by referees of football matches among other personnel. I cannot comment on its effectiveness pitted against the noise of 50,000 punters yelling encouragement at two strongly fancied horses – especially when the whistle is not blown 70 yards away from the obstacle.
Ed Gillespie’s team normally do a superb job. As I said at the time of the Cross Country debacle in December, they should have put up their hands and agreed to ensure the course was signed and marked much more effectively. The executive did not agree and stated that they believed there was no fault on their part.
Everyone makes mistakes but racing is developing a ‘circle-the-wagons’ attitude that serves neither them nor the sport well. An apology goes a long way with most people. Sorry shouldn’t be the hardest word.
The same could be said for Geraghty and even he said that he would have followed Lynch in whatever he would have done. On this evidence, it would be unreasonable to assume that either man actually had adequate time.
It’s even more unreasonable for jockeys mid-drive in a championship event to be put in this position at all. Safety concerns aside, the only responsibility of the course is to ensure the fairest possible conditions for determining the best two mile chaser of the season. These conditions were not provided and as a result, Finians Rainbow will always have a perfectly avoidable "what if" against his crown and Sizing Europe will likely be past his peak thus unable to prove the result wrong.
Obviously it applies to both Andrew and Barry.
Every jockey has to react to whatever happens.
There are always "what ifs".
What if Henderson wasn’t in such good form?
What if Kauto Stone and Wishful Thinking didn’t fall?
What if Big Zeb would’ve been at his best?
What if Lynch hadn’t gone so fast early?
What if Master Minded was still around?There will always be "what ifs" against every winner, this is just one more.
Value Is EverythingThe point is that the safety concerns were put first. If the result was affected, which seems unlikely as the race was won by producing Finians Rainbow as late as possible, then it is a small price to pay.
I have no issue whatsoever with the fence being dolled. It’s the fact that is was unclearly dolled which is the issue of contention.
Obviously it applies to both Andrew and Barry.
Every jockey has to react to whatever happens.
There are always "what ifs".
What if Henderson wasn’t in such good form?
What if Kauto Stone and Wishful Thinking didn’t fall?
What if Big Zeb would’ve been at his best?
What if Lynch hadn’t gone so fast early?
What if Master Minded was still around?These "what ifs" you mention are all part of the sport and contribute to the fascination which perpetuates with every race. The confusion caused by the umming and aahing of the groundstaff was not part of the predetermined race conditions.
Everything the groundstaff did was within the rules of racing, therefore it is just another "what if". Just like any other rule.
Of course it would’ve been better had the flag man been a little further up the course and further out on to the track. But as I understand it, the flagman was within guidelines. So no matter how it was "dolled off" it is up to jockeys to react the best they can.
The boards were needed to protect the injured.
I think the more important question is: Should photographers be allowed so close?
Value Is EverythingEverything the groundstaff did was within the rules of racing, therefore it is just another "what if". Just like any other rule.
Of course it would’ve been better had the flag man been a little further up the course and further out on to the track. But as I understand it, the flagman was within guidelines. So no matter how it was "dolled off" it is up to jockeys to react the best they can.
Guidelines/rules are far too vague – a not uncommon problem in BHA directives
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