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Does anyone out there have an official description of the SP process?
I.e. How the prices are set, who does it, why it can be trusted etc ?The PA provide an official "SP returner" who oversees the whole process and makes the final decisions over the production of the show prices which is pretty much carried out by SIS/TurfTV operatives using software at the track. A "sample" [ie. a number made up of an amount of firms with pitches at the track in question] of bookmakers is decided upon, this is a fluctuating figure depending on the amount of bookmakers present oncourse at any one meet – in order to qualify to be used in the sample of prices certain requirements have to be met also, ie the firm has to be known as a decent layer of bets and it is preferred that they have electronic boards linked into the computer system oncourse if possible. The prices of all these bookies are fed into a central computer system (each pitch is connected into this system at source) and the official show prices are drawn from that. The best possible price being displayed on at least 50% of the firms in the sample at that time becomes the show price. After the off, the last show price is confirmed as the starting price once the PA returner is satisfied that was the true show on the off, ie the horses were being laid at those prices immediately prior to the start of the race.
A couple of glaring innaccuracies there:
1) Prefrence is given not to firms known as layers of a decent bet but firms that are not actually competing for decent bets ie those that have stuck up each-way signs and the big four, whose intersts in getting prices to artifically low levels far outweigh those of actually competing for business.
2) The SP retuener is not concerned with the true price at the off – the price people in the betting ring are actually taking (ie the highest price generally available). He is concerned only with the false price at the off – ie the median price, rigged by the big four, at which not a single bet need not actually be struck and often isn’t.
SL, you description sounds like a very equitable system. My understanding is closer to what Glenn says and the mugs who bet at SP are being ripped off big time. The small number of on course bookmakers cooperating with the big 3 are also doing nicely out of the current arrangement.
Hello,
Shadow, please use paragraphs!!
Otherewise, a reasonable explanation, but does not explain the "fiddlin" of SPs’So go and get your reply in paragraphs, emphazize the points, or even highlight your points, and after making a statement, ensure you come to a conclusion…it is important what YOU actually think… There is nothing wrong in saying.."this is an indicator to…"
"I can infer from.."…It is important that after making a statement, which your posting is that you HAVE to put across not an opinion, but a YOUR belief what is happening, … But otherwise an excellent piece..
regards,
doyley
Hello,
Sorry, I was targeting the last piece of the question…"can any one be trusted"…
regards,
doyley
Does anyone know if the implemented reasoning of the Starting Price Review Commission for the changes brought in last November are in the public domain?
If so, where can I get a copy from and if not does anyone know where I would need to apply, under the Freedom of Information Act, in order to get a copy?
Pete
If you ever watch just the betting on an average 8-12 runner race, as I have the unfortunate honour of being able to do so where I work, you will notice the book stays pretty much even until about 3 minutes before the off, at which point it is commonplace for 3 or 4 of the leading fancies to suddenly be "backed" and shorten in price.
As Glenn says the new system allows for manipulation of the prices. If the front 4 in the market are shortened and the bookies claimed they are all being backed what can you do? In short if you don’t or won’t bet on the exchanges, you’d be best taking a show price or even on early price rather than SP.
Rant over
I’m afraid the present system is a mugging of all punters betting at SP when compared with the system it replaced last November.
The evidence for this has been mounting up and it has been clear for many months that the average overround per runner has increased by a very significant margin thus reducing the value available to SP bettors.
In short, since last November the price of a bet has increased – probably by about 20 per cent or so.
There is absolutely nothing that punters can do about this except stop betting at SP. What alternatives are there?
Early prices have also been shaved, but are generally better than waiting for the prices to contract in the minutes before the off. I’m not keen at all on Tote Odds because you never know what you are going to get despite the approximate odds shown on the Tote.
The only avenue left is the betting exchange, but these also have the problem of lack of liquidity(except for major races and meetings) at certain times, usually before the market settles down near to the race time.
Doyley, I used one paragraph to talk about one subject. That’s perfectly acceptable – it’s not really my problem if you need sentences and paragraphs broken down into bullet points so you can understand what is being said.
As for the pathetic, Betfair style comments from yourself, Glen and others – get a grip! I have not outlined what I “think” happens, I have outlined the SP process.
It does make me laugh when a handful of punters read the Betfair forum and think they have half an idea about how bookmaking actually works.
But hey, why on earth let the facts get in the way of a decent NOTW style conspiracy theory?
So do you consider the SP process equitable and acceptable Shadow Leader or would you do it differently?
Whether I see the process as equitable and acceptable isn’t under question, FSL – what was under question was whether the process being carried out was being corrupted or not. The conspiracy theorists on here (you know who you are!) were basically accusing the people carrying out the process of not following the guidelines as they should thus returning false/bent starting prices.
FWIW it’s a difficult question to answer anyway as no matter how the process is carried out there will be plenty of howls of derision from some quarters. Personally I think that the system in place is as fair as any, which doesn’t mean there is no scope for improvement either – there are very few things out there that cannot have any improvements to be made to them!
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/horseracing/story/0,,1925400,00.html
.. a piece from the conspiritors at the Guardian.In this day and age racing needs to compete with other low cost products, bookies need to contribute more of their profits from racing to the Levy.
I think you’re missing my point Dave – it appears to me that the main critiques on this thread that I am responding to aren’t questioning the SP process per se (even though they are against it) but are accusing the people effecting the process of manipulating it in order to return false SPs.
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The original question was can it, (The SP process), be trusted.
While it may be operated to the letter of Lord Donoghue’s law, there is little doubt that it is being manipulated by the major off-course firms, and is not the independent reflection of prices in the ring it once was.
The big 3 no longer have to inject enough money to change the price generally; now they know who their targets are – often comprised of their own firms and a few accomodating ‘allies’ – they no longer have to take on the ring to shorten a horse/horses, while a few hundred quid in the right places will now do the same job for them.
It can hardly be an independent process either, apart from their own books being part of the mechanism, other books that openly boasted of not taking each way bets in an open market previously, now admit to pricing up an each way book with its inevitable shorter prices yet, however unrepresentative, still have a large and unfair influence on returned prices.
While there is some sympathy with the erosion of SP over-rounds since the dawn of the exchanges, putting the foxes in control of the chicken coop is hardly likely to engender trust amongst the hens.
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