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The BHA most certainly do have the power to pevent a bad jumper from continuing to race. Here’s part of a much longer section of the rules of racing (Schedule 8 of the Traner Manual for those who want to go and read the whole thing)
3. The Authority may suspend a horse from running in specified races, or races of a specified description, if it is satisfied that either of the following grounds is established.
GROUND 1
Unacceptable Jumping: the Authority considers that the horse’s jumping is unacceptable.
An example of jumping which the Authority is likely to consider unacceptable is when a horse falls or unseats its Rider at an obstacle in three consecutive steeple chases or hurdle races (including any combination).
GROUND 2
Non-Completions: a horse fails to complete the course in five consecutive steeple chases or hurdle races (including any combination).
A ‘non-completion’ means any form of failure to complete the course.
If all non-completions have occurred in steeple chases, the horse will be entitled to run in races other than steeple chases.
Just like with starting stall problems, the horse has to pass a schooling test in front of a BHA appointed assessor before it can resume racing.
I’m not suggesting this should be applied in the case of Knowhere, just pointing out that power does exist.
AP
Compare Knowhere to the Duke of Alberquerque. They refused to let him ride in the National on at least one occasion for his own safety. Would you let him ride next Saturday ( assuming you could time-warp him forward to the present )?
My favourite horses - Red Rum, Spanish Steps, Proud Tarquin, Esban, Go-Pontinental, Barona, Charles Dickens, The Dikler, Astbury, Black Secret, Vulgan Town, Huperade, Well To Do, Crisp, Quintus, Argent, Colebridge, Pearl Of Montreal, Nereo, Sonny Somers, Tubs VI, Tartan Ace, Red Candle, L'Escargot, Bula, Beau Bob, Rouge Autumn, Rough Silk, Frodo, Deblin's Green, Prince Tino, Eyecatcher, The Pilgarlic, Captain Christy, Mr Midland, Interview II, Credit Call, My Virginian, Flush Of Diamonds, Scout, Money Ma
You got some balls on you Ginger.
When I saw your thread I thought geez! that’s a bit out of order but when I got to this:-
"Knowhere’s fall at Cheltenham CTD of Casey Jones"
That raised a gulp I can tell you
One could just as easily blame Paul Carberry for running his horse’s head up Knowhere the dodgy jumper’s backside.
Not the done thing mate perhaps one should delete it
Of course Knowhere should be allowed to run. That is unless you want 60% of the field to be taken out with him.
His owner’s contribution to racing alone justify’s it.
He has entered the horse in many races knowing he can’t win. Most of which he has ran with distinction in. He’s taken on the likes of Denman, Kauto Star, Madison Du Berlais and had a list of really good chaser finish well behind him on several occassions.
If I woke up the day after the National and someone told me Knowhere had won it I wouldn’t be at all surprised. You should go back and look at some of the winners and what they did beforehand……Anglo if I remember right was 50/1 and had PUP form and Red Marauder was an awful jumper of park fences.
Knowehere ran a good 2nd recently, scared the life out of Exotic Dancer a few year ago and has won more than a few races. His form isn’t anywhere near bad enough to justify a post and an unfortunate accident doesn’t give anymore grounds to single him out, than 50 odd others that are entered.
Have a nice day mate and keep up the good work. Your posts never cease to amaze me.
Fist,
I said the fall of Knowhere
caused
the death of Casey Jones, that is a fact. Without the fall of Knowhere, Casey Jones would still be alive today. I did
NOT
say I
blamed
the horse or connections for the death, it was just a racing incident. If you read what I said, it is clear the incident had no bearing on my opinion.
The Moulds have done a good deal for racing, and their colours have been on some of my favourite horses. Tipping Tim one example. But whatever the owner’s "contribution", does not justify being able to run a horse who does not jump well enough to be worth the risk.
If (big IF) Knowhere does jump well, then I would not be surprised if he was concerned in the finish. It’s just sometimes the risk to the horse (and others) does not justify the possibility of "success".
Value Is EverythingThe BHA most certainly do have the power to pevent a bad jumper from continuing to race. Here’s part of a much longer section of the rules of racing (Schedule 8 of the Traner Manual for those who want to go and read the whole thing)
3. The Authority may suspend a horse from running in specified races, or races of a specified description, if it is satisfied that either of the following grounds is established.
GROUND 1
Unacceptable Jumping: the Authority considers that the horse’s jumping is unacceptable.
An example of jumping which the Authority is likely to consider unacceptable is when a horse falls or unseats its Rider at an obstacle in three consecutive steeple chases or hurdle races (including any combination).
GROUND 2
Non-Completions: a horse fails to complete the course in five consecutive steeple chases or hurdle races (including any combination).
A ‘non-completion’ means any form of failure to complete the course.
If all non-completions have occurred in steeple chases, the horse will be entitled to run in races other than steeple chases.
Just like with starting stall problems, the horse has to pass a schooling test in front of a BHA appointed assessor before it can resume racing.
I’m not suggesting this should be applied in the case of Knowhere, just pointing out that power does exist.
AP
Thanks for that Alan.
I take it from those rules a horse needs to fall or unseat to be deemed a poor jumper. So the amount of mistakes does not come in to it. Therefore, presumably the BHA are powerless to act in the case of Knowhere, even if they wanted to or not.
I take it there is no other rule specifically made for the Grand National? Only, the first time I heard about such a rule was in the lead up to a Grand National.
I do believe when it comes to the National; jumping ability should be judged on more than the number of falls and unseated. As a horse needs to put in a better jumping performance over National fences than Park fences.
Value Is EverythingMaybe the qualification for the National should be races at Aintree in November/December, in the manner that some chases / hurdles events are organised. Maybe a 1 circuit race, plus pre-qualification for previous National runners who had completed. Something like that. Jumping ability is vital at Aintree, I can’t see Kauto Star ever running there. He’s the perfect example of a horse that is top class but not at Aintree, a Red Rum in reverse! The horse’s well-being should be first and foremost…not negotiable.
My favourite horses - Red Rum, Spanish Steps, Proud Tarquin, Esban, Go-Pontinental, Barona, Charles Dickens, The Dikler, Astbury, Black Secret, Vulgan Town, Huperade, Well To Do, Crisp, Quintus, Argent, Colebridge, Pearl Of Montreal, Nereo, Sonny Somers, Tubs VI, Tartan Ace, Red Candle, L'Escargot, Bula, Beau Bob, Rouge Autumn, Rough Silk, Frodo, Deblin's Green, Prince Tino, Eyecatcher, The Pilgarlic, Captain Christy, Mr Midland, Interview II, Credit Call, My Virginian, Flush Of Diamonds, Scout, Money Ma
Ginger,
The following clause from the race entry conditions would seem to give the BHA total control over what runs:
"The British Horseracing Authority may exercise their powers under Rule (A)12.4.4 to refuse to allow a horse duly entered to run when they have reason to be concerned about the horse’s suitability for the race."
Rule (A) 12.4 is essentially a carte blanche for the BHA to ignore or amend any rule if they feel it necessary:
"12.4 In any case of expediency or of emergency, the Authority may
12.4.1 modify these Rules or any part of them,
12.4.2 suspend any Rule or part of a Rule for such period or periods as the Authority considers appropriate,
12.4.3 order the abandonment of any race or race meeting, and
12.4.4 refuse to allow a horse duly entered to run in any race."AP
I think the rules that AP quotes would only be used by the BHA in very extreme cases, where the argument of being ‘a danger’ could be demonstrated.
As others have pointed out the horses Aintree performances look solid to me and he has shown good form this season on ocassion.
Out of interest Mark would you prevent Zaarito running in the Powers Gold Cup today? Also, would you have resisted running Big Zeb in the Queen Mother Champion Chase?Knowhere currently priced from 66/1 to 100/1 but a massive 150/1 with Victor Chandler. Does anyone know of an even bigger price please?
Message to S.B. – where I live now not connected with Fibre Ops. (or gas!) so can’t watch ATR via Virgin. Are you still doing your critical race analysis or have you mellowed? Can ATR be purchased over the internet on a month by month basis or is a long commitment required please?
KI think the rules that AP quotes would only be used by the BHA in very extreme cases, where the argument of being ‘a danger’ could be demonstrated.
As others have pointed out the horses Aintree performances look solid to me and he has shown good form this season on ocassion.
Out of interest Mark would you prevent Zaarito running in the Powers Gold Cup today? Also, would you have resisted running Big Zeb in the Queen Mother Champion Chase?I don’t see any similarity Sean.
Knowhere is an established chaser, poor jumper, one who’s jumping has become increasingly ragged, running over the most difficult fences (Aintree). His jumping is worse now than it was going in to the race last year, or the year before, or the year before that. I have no objection to him running on any course with conventional fences. You’d be a good wrestling promoter Sean, a record of two falls and a submission, solid?
On two ocassions Knowhere put up "fair" form this season. Once first time out, invariably jumps better early in the season, when his confidence is greater. On the other at Newbury, he made three significant errors that would probably have seen him fall at Liverpool.Zaarito’s jumping could be better, but he’s a Novice learning his trade, racing over conventional fences. Had he been entered in the Topham, I might have had something to say, (having said that) he put up a good round last time out. Being a novice, that’s a sign of improvement in that department. (where as Knowhere is an established chaser and unlikely to improve his jumping)
I don’t see there is much wrong with Big Zeb’s jumping. Admittedly it is sometimes not as good as you’d expect for a top class 2 miler. To me (apart from the Tingle Creek) it is more a horse who can make the odd bad blunder, rather than a "poor jumper".
Value Is EverythingMaybe the qualification for the National should be races at Aintree in November/December, in the manner that some chases / hurdles events are organised. Maybe a 1 circuit race, plus pre-qualification for previous National runners who had completed. Something like that. Jumping ability is vital at Aintree, I can’t see Kauto Star ever running there. He’s the perfect example of a horse that is top class but not at Aintree, a Red Rum in reverse! The horse’s well-being should be first and foremost…not negotiable.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
I certainly think a pre-requisite for horses in the National should be that they’ve at least seen the fences they’re going to be up against.
I actually think one of the problems with the National is that too many horses go into it never having actually raced over four miles plus.Ken, I’ve always been mellow!
Mark, the similarity is that the merits of the various horses jumping is open to interpretation and far from black and white. I disagree that there is sufficient evidence on what we’ve seen of Knowhere at Aintree to suggest his participation should be questioned. My opinion though is no more valid than yours.
I certainly wouldn’t want to prevent horses as good as Zaarito or Big Zeb running but every time they do, connections are put through the mill wondering if their jumping will hold up. Zaarito’s fall today makes it five falls from nine now. There’s a case for saying he’s odds-on to hit the deck next time he runs, yet you’re happy for him to run at speed over park fences but not for Knowhere to compete in a National?
Like I say the point is not that we disagree but that it’s inevitable there will be disagreement. A policy of exclusion would be unworkable in almost all imaginable circumstances I’d have thought.Ken, I’ve always been mellow!
Mark, the similarity is that the merits of the various horses jumping is open to interpretation and far from black and white. I disagree that there is sufficient evidence on what we’ve seen of Knowhere at Aintree to suggest his participation should be questioned. My opinion though is no more valid than yours.
I certainly wouldn’t want to prevent horses as good as Zaarito or Big Zeb running but every time they do, connections are put through the mill wondering if their jumping will hold up. Zaarito’s fall today makes it five falls from nine now. There’s a case for saying he’s odds-on to hit the deck next time he runs, yet you’re happy for him to run at speed over park fences but not for Knowhere to compete in a National?
Like I say the point is not that we disagree but that it’s inevitable there will be disagreement. A policy of exclusion would be unworkable in almost all imaginable circumstances I’d have thought.I don’t think we should ONLY look at Knowhere’s Aintree record, three runs is far too small a sample to base a sound opinion on. His runs elsewhere should also be taken in to account.
Now that Zaarito’s record is 5 falls from 9, and the improvement in jumping last time seems just a blip. I’d certainly be against Zaarito being allowed to run over park fences in a 40 runner race. Where his fall is more likely to endanger the lives of other horses and riders. I’d not have a problem in a small field. Knowhere is running in a 40 runner field.
I realise there will always be disagreement over what is and is not a poor jumper. But one person or group of people can come to a decision. Timeform form an opinion about who to give an X to, so why can’t the BHA do the same for the National? I don’t see a policy of exclusion as "unworkable". If it were "unworkable", what is the point of having the rule in the first place? PR perhaps? It does not matter if you or I have any opinion on this Sean. What does matter is the opinion of the BHA. It is their decision.
Anyway, if Knowhere does run in the National I hope I am wrong and wish connections luck.
Value Is EverythingThe point I’m making Mark is how could the BHA or anyone else come to a conclusion, that would be robust enough to resist challenge, on a horse like Knowhere? The horse has fallen twice and unseated twice in a 32 run career under rules and was previously a ptp winner too. Zaarito -prior to today’s fall – had fallen in four of his last 8 starts. You posed the question should the BHA allow the horse to run? My answer would be yes of course they should as there is no sensible alternative. Anthony has stated it’s down to the connections (assuming the horse is good enough to get into the race), I’d agree with that and as AP has pointed out the BHA can intervene if connections really need to be protected from themselves or if other participants need protecting. Twiston has a brilliant record in the race and he’s happy to run him if he gets in.
O.k. Sean.
If you think it can’t be done purely on looking at a horse’s form. Then what about giving points for jumping? According to the Racing Post Results. So many and you are out of the National.Highest number of points for falling last time out, with the number of mistakes all adding up. So a "blundered" counting more than a "hit", counting more than a "mistake" etc. And even something for Pulled up, as something pulled up can’t make a mistake. The Aintree form could also be worked in to the equasion.
In his last 9 starts: Knowhere has Fallen last time out, blundered 6 times, 1 never jumping with any fluency, hits 5, mistakes 2, pulled up 3.
Plus, Unseated rider 2 and Pulled up once from 3 National starts with a blunder on each of those three.
This season
16th Mar, Fell 7th
6th Mar, blundered 5th, hit 10th, mistake 16th
30th Jan, blun 14th, 15th and 16th
1st Jan, hit 1st and 3rd and 13th
12th Dec, PU before 8th
14th Nov, blun 5th, PU before 3 out
24th Oct, Mistk 12th, hit lastLast season
4 Apr, blun 12th, PU before 25th
13 Mar, Never jumping with any fluency
29 Nov, (nothing about jumping)
26 Oct, (nothing about jumping)07/08
26 Apr, not fluent 9th, mistake 20th
5 Apr, blun & UR 25th
14 Mar, Not fluent 4th, blun 9th, hit 13th
26 Jan, hit 8th, not fluent 4 out
15 Dec, hit 12th, mistk 3 out
1 Dec, hit 13th
17 Nov, (nothing about jumping)
20 Oct, mistk 8th06/07
14 Apr, blun & UR 8th
14 Mar, blundered his way around
27 Jan, blun 1st, hit 4th
26 Dec, mistk last
9 Dec, Hit 6th and 13th, mistk 4 out, hit 2 out, not fluent last
18 Nov, mistk 4th, blun 3 out
11 Nov, Fell 8th
7 Oct, Jumped well
21 Sept, (nothing about jumping)
1st Jan, Not fluent.Value Is Everything
- Total Posts 17716
If you’ve got the money then you can go for whatever race you like, its his day out not yours.
If you’ve got the money then you can go for whatever race you like, its his day out not yours.
No he can’t go for whatever race he likes. Not if the horse’s jumping is not up to it. It’s a SAFETY issue.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Ginger you’ve done well to get 3 pages out of peope, think this topic is best locked because its such an outrageous question, a Grade 2 winner at Aintree in 2008 being asked to not run on grounds of not being able to jump – what has the world come to?
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